#40 The Hunters Guild: Red Hood (Ft. Comic book artist Alissa Sallah)

[Transcript by T-Wolf / OzyRat]

David  0:00  
[Intro music] Welcome to this episode of Shonen Flop where we talk about manga series in Shonen Jump that didn't make it big. I'm David. 

Jordan  0:17  
I'm Jordan.

David  0:18  
And this week we're talking about Hunters Guild colon Red Hood, and we are joined by our guest today, Alissa.

Alissa  0:24  
Hi, I'm Alissa Sallah. Um, I am a comic creator. I worked on the comic that just came out Weeaboo by Oni Press, and excited to be here. 

Jordan  0:33  
Oh, yeah.

David  0:34  
So you are our second Comic Book Creator. We were fortunate enough to have Xander Cannon if you're familiar with him at all. 

Alissa  0:39  
Yeah

David  0:39  
On our previous episode, I will say I think the quality of what you read this week was a little bit higher than what Xander got to read. 

Jordan  0:45  
Yeah.

Alissa  0:46  
Lucky me.

David  0:47  
Yeah, but this series was definitely at least a lot more fun. I don't know about you, Jordan. How do you think this was versus Monster Tamer Girls?

Jordan  0:53  
This was definitely way more interesting than Monster Tamer Girls. I definitely like this significantly more and I'm more likely to go back and read this whereas Monster Tamer Girls, I mean, nothing really happens and Monster Tamer Girls.

David  1:07  
Yeah it's just about cute girls taking care of kaiju. And somehow it's really boring.

Jordan  1:12  
You think that that premise would be super exciting, but no. [Jordan giggles]

David  1:16  
And then, Alissa, have you read a lot of manga or watched anime? [Alissa laughs]

Alissa  1:20  
Well, I think I wrote a book about called Weeaboo [Jordan laughs] I would I would hope so. 

Jordan  1:22  
I was just gunna say [Jordan laughs]

David  1:25  
I don't like to assume

Alissa  1:27  
I appreciate that. But yeah, I'm a huge um anime manga fan. I lean more like retro, um, so I like a lot of like, um. 

Jordan  1:35  
Nice.

Alissa  1:35  
Like Devil Man stuff like that. Um, Rose of Risai.

Jordan  1:38  
Oh G. Devil Man?

Alissa  1:40  
When I was a kid I got into I watched the like [Alissa sighs] that like OVA on like VHS or something because my friends had it. [Jordan laughs] 

Jordan  1:48  
Hell yeah!

Alissa  1:49  
It's like a new show coming out I like wait for people to say if it's good or not and then [David laughs] I watch it. [Alissa laughs]

David  1:55  
Oh man that's really awesome. For the record, I actually like almost never watch anime.

Jordan  1:59  
Oh Jesus Christ.

David  1:59  
 And that adds to why I don't assume. 

Alissa  2:01  
Yeah.

David  2:02  
 That people actively engage in that stuff.

Alissa  2:04  
I think a lot of people are either an anime watchers or manga readers, I guess. surprisingly few amount of crossover between the two. [Alissa laughs] Like why aren't we all just reading it all?

Jordan  2:15  
I'm interesting because uh I don't read manga or watch anime or watch anything. I mostly just curl into a ball and let myself wallow in my own depression. [Alissa laughs]

David  2:25  
Get it, Jordan, you work in retail you don't have to flex it [Alissa and Jordan laugh]. But speaking of wallowing in depre- actually this reminded me how my friend's 30th birthday was yesterday, his party and so I said congrats on being 30, you're halfway done. [Jordan laughs]

Alissa  2:39  
Oh, no. [David and Jordan laugh]

Jordan  2:43  
It do be like that. 

David  2:44  
You know what else isn't gonna last for a very long time was this series so why don't we get into the manga details? And yes, I know that's an extremely morbid thing I just said about my friend but it's okay. 

Jordan  2:54  
It's okay. It's okay. 

David  2:55  
He's never listened to this podcast so I can be a little me, I can bully him a little bit on this show.

Jordan  2:59  
Oh it's Louis well fuck Lewis. Lewis should listen to this fucking podcast.

David  3:03  
Yeah, fun fact I also for his birthday got him tickets to see The Eternals which he forgot his Vax card. So he had to go home at the theater and never saw it. So that was a lot of fun. So.

Jordan  3:15  
From what you've told me of it, though, it sounds like he lucked out

David  3:18  
Really the gift was that he didn't see it. [David and Jordan laugh] Anyway, we already had our transition so why don't we go into manga details. This series was created by Yuuki Kawaguchi and it was based actually on a one shot that was also called Hunter's Guild Red Hood and he's also created works called Kirahoshi no Meril and Yadokari no Kuni. This is probably not a surprise in the slightest. Jordan, I forget if we talked about it before or may Alissa, can you take a guess of what really popular Shonen Jump series right now this creator was an assistant for?

Jordan  3:47  
From looking at the notes so I know so Alyssa, what do you think it is?

Alissa  3:51  
Well, I'm already looking at the notes and I also um, but [Jordan laughs] the notes were more of a justification in my thoughts because um I was reading this manga and was like this guy really either likes My Hero Academia or has worked for uh home Horikoshi. Everyone is drawn with that like blocky kind of like big oval mouth lifestyle of My Hero Academia but like mixed with like, [David laughs] I don't know, um, To Your Eternity.

Jordan  4:17  
Thing I like about, uh, this, uh, this art style is that like from the neck down everybody looks like they're on like a heavy metal album cover and then from the neck up they look like Scott Pilgrim. [David laughs]

David  4:32  
Oh ma, that is true. 

Alissa  4:33  
Debonair, for example, looking at how her like these little tiny neck and this like circle Scott Pilgrim head on this giant gargantuan body. [Alissa, David and Jordan laugh]

David  4:43  
In fact, is the second series we've ever covered by an assistant. I it's actually the series that started the show Zipman was also created by another assistant, but it's interesting how they went in different directions. Where this guy kind of had a much sketchier style Well, Zipman has this really, really polish style, but both of them you can tell they're both extremely high effort. This series ran from June 28 2021 to November 8 2021, making it the most recently cancelled series. This actually was the first series we have ever done a kind of preview on that ultimately got axed so that's-

Jordan  4:44  
Yeah.

David  4:45  
Why we put our Chibi scoring up just because you know can't really do a first impressions on the series that we had already done one on and I personally was actually actively reading this so this is the first cancellation that I was actually disappointed by. 

Jordan  5:24  
Yeah. 

David  5:24  
It was shortly lived with only three volumes in 18 chapters which puts it just at about the cancel this as soon as we can [Alissa laughs] club along with I would say about half the series we cover in this podcast.

Jordan  5:34  
Is it just me or is it getting like shorter. You know, like Candy Flurry was also like 18 chapters, right like and that was also a very recent recently axed series. Like we read a lot of older series that are like far lower in quality and they get to like fuckin chapter 25 or some shit and then it just seems like Shonen Jump is just not putting up 

Alissa  5:53  
Anything? 

Jordan  5:53  
Anything.

Alissa  5:54  
Hmm.

Jordan  5:54  
As much right now,

David  5:55  
Just from the chat, it seems like Shonen Jump right now has a really strong block of core series and they really are concerned about what's going to replace them because like Dr. Stone is ending My Hero Academia and they're like if this can't be our next like

Jordan  6:08  
Yeah.

David  6:08  
Dr. Stone or My Hero Academia, we're not going to risk running it because there's just not space for series that kind of have like a mediocre 100 chapter run.

Jordan  6:15  
Which is hilarious because like they're huge series you know, you got Naruto, you got DBZ, you got fuckin they're bringing in Bleach back, which is hilarious. [Alissa laughs] Like, oh yeah, I remember how Naruto was like, fucking great for its first 30 chapters entirely right? 

David  6:33  
Yeah.

Alissa  6:33  
Hey, man, I like those thirty chapters of Naruto. [Alissa laughs] When he made all those shadow clones, dude. [Alissa laughs]

Jordan  6:40  
No, you right, I guess whatever, whatever. [Alissa laughs]

David  6:43  
Are you hot take like saying that the worst part of Naruto is like the best part. Like everything up to the Chunen Exam was the best part of Naruto.

Jordan  6:49  
I guess. I guess you're right. Oh.

Alissa  6:52  
This guy's like, I love the Great Moon War.

Jordan  6:55  
Oh, whatever. [Jordan laughs] I don't remember the Great Moon War. I guess my point is that like for the best of the best parts of Naruto are like, oh, they weren't that great. [Alissa laughs] But anyway.

David  7:06  
Totally Not Mark is never going to be on this show now. 

Jordan  7:08  
Cool.

David  7:08  
So anyway, [Jordan laughs] so speaking of plot, why don't we actually get into talking about the manga itself, where Jordan has written a fantastic plot summary.

Jordan  7:16  
Thank you. The little Russian hamlet of Kosaka has been attacked by werewolves again. And in response, the mayor has reached out to the Hunter's Guild which has sent a little girl in a red hood named Grimm to fight off the werewolves. Velou is a young village boy raised by the mayor, who was tasked with showing Grimm around when the mayor is suddenly eaten by a werewolf, leaving his wife, a sweet old granny all alone. Velou, however, realizes that the granny is actually the wolf because it's Little Red Riding Hood [Alissa laughs] and Grimm transforms into a giga thicc, powerful adult woman. Oh my god, and together they kill the granny wolf. Soon after, however, two werewolf brothers decided to take her place but are defeated when Grimm literally hands Velou Chekhov's gun, [Alissa laughs] which does not have silver bullets, but wolfonium bullets. [Alissa groans] The alpha wolf, Lycaon, Lycaon? Lysa Lycaon arrives to the hamlet with his partner, the Ashen Witch, Cinderella, who burns the whole fucking place to ash. Do you get it?

Alissa  8:25  
No, please explain it to me. [Jordan laughs]

David  8:28  
If anything Jordan loves it's explaining things.

Jordan  8:31  
Shut up.

David  8:32  
Yeah. Jordan's never gunna live down with Jordan mansplain what an OT what Zander's own comic meant. [Alissa laughs]

Jordan  8:37  
Whatever.

David  8:38  
I get why, what he was doing 

Jordan  8:39  
What ever.

David  8:40  
I just giving you shit about that. [Alissa laughs]

Jordan  8:42  
Yeah, David, you never explained things over and over again. And like go into like, long diatribe, whatever. Let's go. [Alissa laughs]

David  8:51  
By the way, it wasn't until this past summer I realize why she was called Cinderella.

Alissa  8:55  
Oh so you need an explainer.

David  8:57  
I got the Ashen but I didn't get the cinder part.

Jordan  8:59  
In the original fairy tale, that's why she's called Cinderella. 

David  9:02  
Really? 

Jordan  9:02  
She is so broke that she's like, covered in ash and cinders.

David  9:07  
That's good work. That's good work.

Alissa  9:09  
See, this is why the importance of explaining. 

Jordan  9:11  
Yeah.

David  9:12  
Yeah, thank you. I never said Jordan doesn't [Alissa laughs] use [Alissa laughs] his powers for good. 

Jordan  9:15  
Thank you. 

David  9:16  
But he can also use them for uh [Alissa laughs] anyway, [Jordan laughs] Grimm decides to take Velou to the headquarters of the Hunter's Guild to get licensed to take a Hunter's Exam. Hmm, Hunter's Exam, where have I heard that? Training for the exam on a train takes place aboard the Iron Works. A big train conducted by the extremely muscular, Debonair Diamond, a woman who is even giga thicker than Grimm, Holy shit. Jordan put that all in caps he was that excited to talk about her. [Alissa and Jordan laugh] After three months of training, Diamond reveals the Hunter's Exam is a game of cops and robbers against her and Grimm. There's a bunch of other characters who aren't important. Other than that they team up with Velou to win but oh my god, it turns out the mayor from earlier was alive the whole time and working with the bad guys to steal some kind of book. [Alissa and Jordan laugh] Take the tome.

Oh my god. 

Jordan  9:53  
Did you just call her Alison?

David  9:59  
I meant Alissa take it over. [Jordan laughs] I definitely said Allison I'm sorry. [Jordan laughs]

Alissa  10:07  
At this point is when I knew that the editors told them you're cancelled, wrap it up.

Jordan  10:13  
It's never been so blatently obvious. [Alissa laughs]

Alissa  10:16  
So by this point Grimm's character has deteriorated and lost a significant portion of her depth and Velou's character completely messes up the plot threads of anybody he interacts with, which are all the things stated directly in the series because the fourth wall is about to get broken down.

Jordan  10:31  
Broken the fuck down.

David  10:33  
This is some end of Animal Man shit.

Jordan  10:35  
Yeah. [Alissa and Jordan laughs] That's essencially gonna be like my recommendation cause like, yeah, exactly. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Alissa keep going.

David  10:45  
Please continue.

Alissa  10:46  
Let me not have to think about this. Um, everything that's been read so far has been for the enjoyment of readers, but they aren't liking it anymore, so the world must end. The mayor who is actually Geppetto wants to end the series just full stop. But the book containing the fate of the world transforms into Chekhov's gun, which Velo shoots at the mayor. Velou doesn't want the series to end, so it doesn't really get an ending. It ends with the implication that more stories will be written at some point. What a judo throw?

David  11:17  
Narrator, they were not. [Alissa and Jordan laugh]

Jordan  11:21  
I loved it. Oh, my God. Like this is some Stealth Symphony shit, David. [Alissa and Jordan laugh]

David  11:27  
Yeah, so if you want to see the absolute most insane ending, this is very strong competition. 

Jordan  11:33  
Yeah. 

David  11:33  
We'll have to argue that at some point, Jordan, when we have time, 

Jordan  11:36  
I know, I know, yeah

David  11:36  
I'm sure some reader so some listeners going to ask what had the crazier ending this, so we'll save it for a chibi episode ,uh, questionnaire.

Jordan  11:44  
It's really hard to top the ending of Stealth Symphony, where you discover that the main character was an unreliable narrator, and everybody winds up in real life, Japan, but this comes pretty fucking close.

David  11:59  
Yeah, it really does. [Alissa sighs]

Alissa  12:01  
I feel like what they were trying to do was just like, Alright, I have all these ideas for this Red Hood series that I'm doing. It's gonna be great. It's gonna take off, everyone's gonna love it. And then they were like, no, we're canceling you. They were like, well, I've got all these ideas. Let me just cram them all into the span of three chapters, so that everyone knows how good this would have been if it had the full amount of time [Jordan giggles] to tackle these crazy fourth wall breaking ideas.

Jordan  12:24  
Oh, my God, there's like so much that I have to say about this. It's fucking insane. I, I'm just waiting for like. [Jordan sighs]

David  12:31  
We're doing a great job at not derailing the plot section.

Jordan  12:33  
I know. I know. I know, yeah. [Alissa laughs]

David  12:34  
So let's try and be good and actually talk about it in the appropriate section. So speaking, though, of good boys, Jordan, why don't you tell us about the main character.

Jordan  12:35  
The main character is Velou. Ravello. We've been calling him Velou. He is he's a boy, and turns out that I guess he's Pinocchio. 

David  12:52  
Yep. 

Jordan  12:53  
I guess he is because his father figure who created him who literally created him is Geppetto. [Alissa giggles] They point out a lot how it's like, oh, well, his whole thing is that he seems to make characters worse. [Alissa and David laugh] Cause like, by hanging out with Grimm, and they say it in the series, like directly in the fucking series, with because of her time with Velou she has lost the depth of her character. It's amazing. I've never seen that before. Holy shit. [Alissa and Jordan laugh]

David  13:25  
Oh, god, yeah, pretty much just kind of created in the equivalent of a lab just to be like to make the plot work around him.

Jordan  13:31  
He was created in a lab to be the perfect Shonen Jump protagonist. And they did it wrong, I guess. Oh, my God, this series is almost like a satire of manga at some points.

David  13:45  
Yeah. And we've read a lot of bad satire. And this did a better job than some of those. 

Jordan  13:49  
Yeah.

Alissa  13:49  
It's trying to tart out um to varying levels of success.

David  13:54  
Yeah, I'll go next, because I'll give you the honor talking about Debonair. So Grimm, she uh looks like a little girl but turns into a really thicc woman. I forgot that the first ever panel the series is her pouring water over herself. [Jordan laughs]

Jordan  14:08  
You're right. 

David  14:08  
This series knew exactly what it was doing with this character. {Alissa laughs]  

Jordan  14:12  
Absolutely did. Yeah. Good job to if I might, if I must say. [Alissa grunts in agreement]

Yeah

 Like, damn. 

David  14:18  
Yeah, do you think this guy is just gonna be like the, was it Bokke-San where the guy quit and just started drawing porn? [Alissa laughs] 

Jordan  14:24  
Yes.

David  14:25  
I could see that future for him because he knows what he knows what people want. 

Jordan  14:28  
Yeah.

Alissa  14:28  
I have something I want to request from his future, um, that I will bring up [Alissa laughs] later, but I have I've needs from him. [Alissa and Jordan laugh]

Jordan  14:36  
I have, I also [Alissa laughs] have many needs from him.

David  14:39  
But you know who we need is [David laughs] Alissa, I'm giving you the honor to talk about

Jordan  14:43  
Well, let's talk let's talk a little bit more about Grimm, because there's a little bit more to her character. I mean.

David  14:46  
What's there to say about her. That's the whole point, she has no characterization.

Alissa  14:49  
Yeah, her character gets sucked out by Velou. So. [Alissa laughs]

David  14:53  
Yeah, she gets the big suck. [Alissa laughs] [Jordan sighs]

Jordan  14:55  
I guess that's true. Yeah, she's a Hunter, and she's she is Grimm of the 100 cannons. And that just means that she can pull out a bunch of guns from hammerspace. That's basically [Alissa agrees] how [Alissa agrees] she operates.

David  15:06  
And she has a magic tool that has 606 forms.

Jordan  15:09  
Is it 600? Or 616? 

David  15:13  
Sorry, 616. 

Jordan  15:14  
Like the Marvel Universe. 

Alissa  15:16  
Like an area code. 

Jordan  15:17  
Might be close to me, [Alissa laughs] actually, that's not not too different from mine. 

David  15:21  
Your's [Edited in white noise] [Alissa laughs]. 

Jordan  15:22  
Oh, thanks for doxxing me, David.

David  15:23  
It was right on the podcast. [Alissa and Jordan laugh]

Jordan  15:25  
 Now, everybody knows my area code, they're gonna find me.

David  15:28  
Sorry, I gave you the area code that 3 million people in. [Jordan laughs]

Jordan  15:33  
God, said my full name on this [Alissa laughs] on this episode and my area code what's next? Just give him my fucking Social Security.

David  15:39  
Alright, so anyway, please tell us about Debonair.

Alissa  15:42  
Debonair Diamond, who is hot, thicc muscle and she's the whole package. I like Debonair because she her whole stick is that she's so hot that she actually literally becomes hot and turns into [Jordan giggles] 6000 degrees of temperature and can melt things because the author knew exactly what he was doing when he created Debonair.

Jordan  16:04  
Absolutely.

David  16:05  
I was really disappointed there wasn't like a dude in like the Burn Ward. And he was like, [Alissa and Jordan laughs] fucking worth it, bro.

Alissa  16:12  
The reason she's hot though, which is interesting is that she was. 

Jordan  16:17  
Temperature wise. 

Alissa  16:18  
Yes, she's hot because you know, great taste. 

Jordan  16:20  
Yep

Alissa  16:21  
But the heat she admits is created by a curse from a witch. So she is cursed to like have a superpower because I'm not really seeing like, it's like, oh, the lowest temperature she could get is being 120 degrees, which isn't like that much hotter than humans. Like it's like hot, but it's like you could still like hug people and like do normal human things. So not.

Jordan  16:43  
Yeah, she's not the Human Torch. 

Alissa  16:45  
Yeah.

David  16:46  
They do say it took her an insanely long amount of training. 

Alissa  16:50  
Fair. 

David  16:50  
You know in Fire Punch, he eventually stops being on fire after like 15 years and you're gonna be like, Oh, what was the downside of him being lit on fire his entire life? 

Jordan  16:58  
That's fair. 

David  16:58  
All right. I'll give it to her. But yeah, Debonair is wonderful. Um. The best character, a whole lot of fun, very fun personality.

She has the longest character section in our notes. [Alissa laughs]

Jordan  17:09  
Yeah. [David laughs]

David  17:10  
Grimm is supposed [Alissa laughs] to be the dual protagonist and we just.

Jordan  17:13  
And her section consists of hot, thicc muscle [Alissa laughs] and the whole package [Jordan laughs]. She also got an eyepatch. It's pretty sad. 

Alissa  17:20  
Yeah. 

David  17:21  
They never explained why she has an eye patch. 

Jordan  17:23  
Because it's cool. David, David, holy shit. This series has eye patches and it's about wolves. And is it super? 

Alissa  17:31  
What? 

David  17:32  
What? 

Jordan  17:33  
Really David? [Alissa grunts in disagreement]

David  17:34  
No.

Jordan  17:34  
It's Super Eyepatch.

Alissa  17:35  
Oh, that guy? Yeah, the YouTube guy.

Jordan  17:38  
Yeah. The guy that David has a crush on? Yeah. 

Alissa  17:41  
Awe.

David  17:42  
Yeah, that's true. I do want sempai to notice me. [Alissa laughs] I thought you're going to talk about One Piece has yet to have a character eye an eyepatch. [Alissa laughs] Despite it being about pirates.

Jordan  17:49  
That's hilarious. I didn't even pick up on that until you just said that. That's correct. Yeah.

David  17:53  
Yeah, it's crazy until someone points it out. And then you're like, Oh, shit. Cause literally every character one eye has their eye close like Zoro. [Alissa laughs]

Jordan  18:00  
I bet that Oda made that like a personal goal. Is like look, I'm not going to just fucking do the obvious thing here the lazy thing [Alissa laughs] and just have a bunch of dudes with eye patches. I'm going to make an active effort to ignore that. [Alissa laughs]

David  18:15  
I think he said he's saving it for a special occasion, if I recall.

Patchy the Pirate from Spongebob. [Alissa laughs] What Devil Fruit does he have David?

The, uh, next next fruit where we're going to talk about the next character. So this recording doesn't last two hours. 

Jordan  18:27  
Yeah.

David  18:27  
Yeah, so there's also just a fuck ton of side characters that show up because he's like, Oh, I'm going to just introduce 15 characters with powers and think that's fine for chapter 12 for readers to take it in where again, we complained about how Monster Tamer Girls had six main characters over 10 chapters and how that was excessive.

Jordan  18:43  
You shouldn't be setting this shit up at this point. I I would like to just read a story. 

Alissa  18:48  
Yeah. 

Jordan  18:49  
I'm getting like kneecapped at every end by the fact that I have to remember who this character that's appeared one time before means but we'll talk about that more in the next section.

Alissa  18:57  
I feel like there were some good highlights of those characters if he just had more time. Like so I liked slime time. Like the guy who just uses like shrooms at people. He was cool.

Jordan  19:06  
Love that guy. There was the thick religious woman. 

Alissa  19:10  
Yeah. 

Jordan  19:11  
That was a character. [Alissa laughs]

David  19:13  
And then there was the guy with the metal jaw.

Jordan  19:15  
Oh, yeah, that guy that guy's name was literally Bonkers.

Alissa  19:17  
I hated Bonkers. I have a lot of thoughts towards Bonkers.

Jordan  19:21  
Bonkers kinda sucks. Yeah.

David  19:24  
Yeah, that's the how did this get made [Alissa and Jordan laugh] representative because they just always say Bonkers.

Jordan  19:27  
Yeah.

David  19:27  
On that show.

Jordan  19:29  
It's Jason met Zuckuss. 

Alissa  19:30  
Awe, Bonkers sucks. 

Jordan  19:32  
Well, let's talk about Bonkers then.

Alissa  19:33  
I mean, cool design. I like his jaw stuff. At first I'm like, Oh, this guy's gonna be fun. He's just like a brick shithouse like dude like coming in to be like, uh, just someone you kind of hate but kind of love just because he just dumb and cute and punchy. But then he get like there's this whole point in like the middle of this super weird rushed cramped like too dense arc with the Hunter's Guild where he just dropped a tragic backstory that homeless people tried to steal from his rich family. And so they burned the homeless guy. And it's sad because no one liked his family after they burned the homeless guy. [Jordan laughs] That was like the lowest point in the entire series. [Alissa and Jordan say something unintelligible] He comes up and he's like, it's okay Bonkers, [Jordan laughs] you can be a Hunter you don't have to be a Hunter, because you were rich once and poor people tried to take from you. It's so terrible.

Jordan  20:24  
Well, but that's not why he doesn't want to be a Hunter, which is insane. He doesn't want to be a Hunter. Because by taking the Hunter Exam and failing it at the last minute, every single year, he gets free room and board on the fucking train. [Jordan laughs]

Alissa  20:39  
Jesus.

David  20:40  
Which is pretty great.

Jordan  20:41  
I gotta admit, I I did kind of like that. [Alissa and Jordan laugh]

David  20:45  
500 IQ move by that guy. Smartest dude in the series. 

Jordan  20:48  
Yeah. 

David  20:48  
Why don't we wrap things up with this section just so we can start diving into other things with talking about the big bad. So Jordan, you want to tell us about Mr. Mayor, as they actually do call him Mr. Mayor several times in the series.

Jordan  21:00  
Yeah. His name is Mayor Hech Horlock, aka literally Ludwig Geppetto from fucking Pinocchio.

David  21:07  
Yep. [David laughs]

Jordan  21:08  
He is the big bad of the series, but I also feel like he's the author.[Alissa grunts in agreement] 

David  21:13  
Yep. 

Jordan  21:14  
He looks at the the fucking camera. He looks at me and says, Okay, it's time to end the series. He's like, honestly, man, I just want to end the fucking series. We don't need like a happier tragic ending. Let's just kind of end it right now. It was so good. [Jordan laughs]

Alissa  21:28  
I'm like, yes, this is the author. Let's go. [Alissa laughs]

Jordan  21:32  
I'd love when whenever there was a moment where I'm like, Oh, this is just the author talking to me right now. Okay, cool. [David laughs] The series starts by saying like, a long time ago, there were dragons and stuff. But then we killed them all. And then there's a moment where the mayor basically turns to uh Velou was like, Hey, you ever hear how there were like dragons and shit here? Well, that's something I wrote 500 years ago. [Alissa laughs] That's me, baby, that's why you think that. [Alissa and Jordan laugh]

Alissa  22:01  
First, I really liked the mayor. Ideal politician. So he's just some guy 

Jordan  22:05  
Yep.

Alissa  22:06  
He sold all his sheeps and stuff so that his town could buy a Hunter, so the people will stop be eaten by werewolves. How a a leader of a city should be. I had absolute [Jordan says yes twice] respect of this unit of a man.

Jordan  22:18  
And he is a unit. 

David  22:19  
I do want to point out one thing is who bought his house? [Jordan laughs] Then they would have to buy a house that's in a village is actively being killed by werewolves?

Jordan  22:27  
Oh, no, it's the universe-

Alissa  22:29  
Uh, oh.

Jordan  22:29  
That Ben Shapiro thinks he lives in. [Alissa and Jordan laughs]

David  22:31  
I was gonna just say the Ben Shapiro but alright, quick because I'm ready. It's Ben Shapiro said, Why are you worried about rising water levels destroying your house? Just sell it to someone? [Alissa laughs]

Alissa  22:40  
Why are you worried about werewolves? Just sell your house and. [Alissa giggles]

David  22:43  
Legally, werewolves cannot eat you if you do not consent just say no. 

Jordan  22:47  
Yeah, really I think about it. It's your fault you get eaten. [Alissa laughs]

David  22:50  
So Jordan, though, speaking of things that are failures, but much unlike yourself, what are some things that 

Jordan  22:56  
Awe.

David  22:56  
stood out to you as failures in the series? 

Jordan  22:58  
I think that was a compliment anyway.

David  23:00  
Was supposed to be but honestly, I'm not really sure if it was. 

Jordan  23:03  
We'll consult the tapes later. [David laughs] The big issue with this series. So in the first few chapters, it establishes like a story structure that could be continued, you know, where like Grimm and Velou are like hanging out together and interacting with each other. And then a werewolf comes to the village and attacks and stuff, and then some other stuff, but then they burn the village to the ground. And all of a sudden, Velou is separated from Grimm and we get like 20 new characters, and I don't really care about any of them. [Alissa grunts in agreement] And the author has to introduce all of them super fucking fast to the point where like, we don't get like any sense for who these characters are, these characters could all be could all have been done very well. 

Alissa  23:42  
Yeah

Jordan  23:43  
There are some characters that I am genuinely interested in, but it's just like he doesn't have the time and it just completely just ruins any sense of connection that I have with these just random dudes on the fucking Hunter Hunter Hunter Exam.

Alissa  23:59  
I feel like it was unearned character arcs. He was going through these like-

Jordan  24:03  
Yeah.

Alissa  24:03  
Full arcs of character backstory redemption for characters you've known for like four pages and they so they draw- 

Jordan  24:10  
Yeah.

Alissa  24:10  
Some backstory on you and then like the main characters crying and there's like all this like dramatic like screaming at the camera and like sobbing and I'm like, he's just trying really hard to like make you feel for these characters without earning it and giving you any sort of build up to it.

David  24:25  
Don't even give background on probably the character I most would have wanted to know the background on is Debonair.

Jordan  24:30  
Yeah, [Jordan sighs] I don't know how many chapters this arc lasts, but it's like the longest arc of the series and it really shouldn't be it's like anywhere from like seven to 10 chapters [Alissa grunts in agreement] and like a significant portion of that is just them hashing out this dumbass plan that doesn't make sense and I don't care about I don't give a fuck about this cops and robbers game at all. [Alissa laughs] Just like oh my god, can we move on to the next thing? Why is this still happening? I like who could care about this. But the other thing I noticed that this author does, which was a real problem. Is that he will have something happen then have a flashback explaining why it was cool that that happened and why we should care.

Alissa  25:07  
He also does really poor flashbacks where he just like he shows a page like a full page of what happened like a few pages ago or like a conversation ago and just kind of slapped it behind the character and you can't tell what's going on back there. It's so weird.

David  25:23  
I remember in like the fourth chapter, they show him like on the the fucking carriage and they have a flashback to her explaining why they got in the carriage and just showing them get on the carriage. Why was that a flashback? It was it [David sighs] just [David sighs] Oh, my God.

Jordan  25:36  
A lot of this uh like order of operations and shit is a real problem in this series. [Alissa grunts in agreement]

David  25:43  
We've definitely read series where in the first chapter, it has a flashback, like Bokke-San has a flashback in the first chapter, instead of just starting at the flashback.

Jordan  25:50  
You can do a flashback, like there are ways to do it that don't suck. Like eh I mean, it's a very common thing to use. 

Alissa  25:58  
Yeah. 

Jordan  25:58  
In manga, you know, but like the way that they're used here, it's just like, you could have condensed all the flashbacks into like one scene especially during that during that exam arc. Like you can't call your series Hunter's Guild and then have the HunterxHunter Exam like [Alissa laughs] come on. Are you fucking kidding me but also what HunterxHunter does that this series fucks up so bad is HunterxHunter will have long periods of characters plotting out a strategy and then you see the strategy take place. Now this author didn't have the time to do that, which is why you shouldn't have done it.

Alissa  26:32  
See what this author to me feels like is that they're a a creator who consumes a lot of shonen manga like showing media rather than kind of like I dunno taking from experiences they have like other kind of sources of like storytelling and so you're getting a lot of these just like trope after trope or like arc after arc that just looks like it's pulling from a lot of different other kinds of, uh, like you said like the Hunter arc definitely just feels like he's just like cramming in what he thinks shonen should have and do.

I think a part of it is his mentorship. So to be completely honest, Alissa, the first few series that the guy who made My Hero Academia, Barrage and Ozu- 

Jordan  27:12  
Were trash. Fucking were trash [Alissa grunts in agreement] 

David  27:14  
They were shit, and this dude just got lucky that he figured out the one topic his like style worked for. 

Alissa  27:19  
Yeah. 

David  27:19  
So I would be wary that this dude got mentorship from someone who really would likewise not have been able to make this idea work. [Alissa laughs]

Alissa  27:27  
Interesting. Ah.

David  27:29  
So I think that's a big thing is he tried to emulate the My Hero Academia style-

Alissa  27:33  
Yeah.

David  27:33  
But he didn't realize why people like it because My Hero Academia has a shitload of characters with unique powers.

Alissa  27:38  
Yeah.

David  27:38  
Lots of thicc women, [Alissa laughs] you know, starts with an exam. It's literally the same thing but he didn't realize that people liked superheroes that much because you don't have to explain a lot of pieces that needed to be explained the series which took up-

Alissa  27:50  
Yeah.

David  27:50  
The way everything feel like it dragged on forever. If you have a cape and you can fly people know you're a superhero.

Jordan  27:55  
Yeah

David  27:55  
You don't have to fucking explain to me what that means.

Alissa  27:58  
You shouldn't need to explain anything. Everyone kind of knows, like Red Riding Hood. He's pulling tropes from old stories that eh uh like I feel like are super popular.

David  28:08  
Well, here's the thing is we don't know that from a Japanese lens. 

Alissa  28:11  
Hmm, but are superheroes either though? 

David  28:14  
Yeah, Marvel's huge.

Alissa  28:15  
Okay. 

Jordan  28:16  
To be honest, I kind of wish that he wouldn't explain the amount of stuff that he explains like I feel like when he explains things, that's when the whole series falls apart. 

Alissa  28:24  
Yeah. 

Jordan  28:25  
The licensing arc, which we we keep mentioning because it is easily the worst and most frustrating part of the series, that series of chapters just keeps getting fucked over because he has to take a break to tell you what [Alissa laughs] just happened. So that you can follow it. 

Alissa  28:37  
Mm hmm. 

Jordan  28:38  
And you know, Candy Flurry had this issue too. There's like this mentality that all right guys, now we got to do the fuckin exam, license par arc or whatever. And just like the exam arc is the new torn tournament arc, basically,

Alissa  28:53  
I can see that. He's just trying to pull off some things that are kind of like over his head, I think and I think he just needs to like, [David grunts in agreement] practice some of these like storytelling tools before he gets into like, because there's art to show up and like wires, why are you pulling an art? Like, just focus in one direction, keep it simple. And then kind of build your ideas from there rather than trying to shove in these like high concept ideas right at the beginning with no kind of like ee ee like not kind of like studying it or understanding how you're using it in the story.

David  29:25  
So yeah, so now that we've really gone into a lot of the negatives, let's try and actually go into the positives because there are a lot of really great elements about the series. This is really the opposite with a lot of dualities, how I'm going to start and end it and likewise, Jordan, you told us about the bad now let's tell us about the good besides the thiccness, you know, that's universal. [Alissa giggles]

Jordan  29:41  
Well, I'm going to talk about the thiccness because the art kicks ass in this series. [Jordan giggles]

David  29:46  
It does.

Jordan  29:45  
I fucking love it. It isn't just about the fact that like, oh man, he drew like these thicc busty like curvy women. I mean, it's a little about that, but it's how he does it, which is like his art has this solidity to it. [Alissa grunts in agreement] Really when I see that it like separates like okay, this is like a manga artist and oh, this guy's just an artist. The way in which these bodies are like constructed and shaded it really just gives you a sense of no there is muscle and there is like bone underneath [Alissa grunts in agreement] the skin of these people and it's it's really well done. 

David  30:20  
Yeah. 

Jordan  30:20  
He's also very good at like dynamic shots too. There's like some really cool moments where like the one off the top of my head is when Velou like cuts open the granny wolf with like the axe. I thought that looked really cool.

Alissa  30:33  
Yeah, the art was fantastic. There's a lot of really great uses of scale. 

Jordan  30:37  
Yeah. 

Alissa  30:37  
Like there's that moment with the the giant tree guy that they are there in the like crab car. 

Jordan  30:43  
Oh yeah. 

Alissa  30:44  
There's a lot of potential for really cool like world building. And like having these kind of like moments of just like you can just like step back. See these like grand things that might exist in this like fantasy, kind of like Tim Burton-y world. And I think [Jordan giggles] if he I wish he was he had focused on that a little bit more, because there's some like really gorgeous, like shots in that um in in those areas.

David  31:05  
God yeah, this dude can fucking do a two page spread.

Alissa  31:07  
Yeah.

David  31:08  
Like that-

Jordan  31:08  
Yeah.

David  31:08  
Explosion scene or the bell in the second chapter, art is not the issue, which actually, I think ironically comes to an issue where I think the big problem was is this art is so high effort, I think he struggled to have the time to actually write the plot and think about the other elements. [Alissa grunts in agreement] 

Jordan  31:25  
If this guy worked with a writer, I think that would be the ideal situation. The other thing about this series and like what it did, well, I really liked I really liked those first few chapters. [Alissa grunts in agreement]

Alissa  31:35  
Those first two chapters really sets up the story as this kind of like fun romp of like themed on uh this Red Riding Hood uh story where you've got these like the wolves that are like not these typical like werewolf creatures, they're a lot more like fun and whimsical [David grunts in agreement] and I really think that there's a lot of potential for camp he really like had something with those first few chapters and just like keeping the scale the scope of this like story a little bit smaller, just focusing on like a couple characters and like kind of giving Grimm more for us to chew on. Because Grimm is like a like it's like they're she's a fun character like how want her to have a personality and like something going for her because that's such a like a fun review where she lives turns like super like rip torn muscle guns and. [Jordan laughs]

Jordan  32:07  
It's so good. Okay, yes, the women are really are like drawing really hot.

David  32:25  
Yeah.

Jordan  32:25  
But they're also strong as fuck, like Debonair will fuck you up. Grimm will fuck you up [Alissa grunts in agreement]. And it is kind of refreshing for the normal kind of sexiness you get in Shonen Jump 

Alissa  32:37  
Yeah.

David  32:37  
It's like Mikasa where if I'm sitting there from from Attack on Titan where she actually looks like someone who is a professional soldier. [Alissa grunts in agreement]

Jordan  32:37  
Yeah, but Grimm is way thicker than Mikasa.

David  32:47  
Mikasa is more of a gymnast, where you couldn't have a build, like Debonair [Alissa sighs] with the kind like that would be very detrimental. 

Alissa  32:54  
That's true. [Jordan grunts] Yeah. 

Jordan  32:55  
Well, you couldn't [Alissa laughs] and still make it hot for Shonen Jump [Alissa laughs] readers.

David  33:00  
Now, we know what Jordans into that's good to know. [Alissa and Jordan laugh]

Jordan  33:03  
No, I'm just saying what Shonen Jump readers are into. [Jordan laughs]

David  33:07  
I also think that the the werewolves themselves like it's interesting how it was this kind of eldritch body horror element.

Jordan  33:12  
Oh, yeah. I love that. Yeah.

David  33:14  
I do like how it was very, like John Carpenter, The Thing inspired with how the wolves infiltrated people, and they mutated and they had this interesting, like, crazy forms. And it just was a really cool element. But it's a shame it never shows up after the first arc.

Jordan  33:27  
It had such a good setup, and then just like ignored it [Alissa grunts in agreement]. Which reminds me like we do have have to talk about the ending, because I do think there were a lot of aspects of the ending- [Alissa laughs]

David  33:37  
It's fucking crazy.

Jordan  33:38  
That I fucking love, okay. 

David  33:40  
Yeah.

Jordan  33:40  
This was amazing to read in real time, [Alissa laughs] by the way. Because it was just like, there was a moment where you were like, Oh, shit, this guy's just like screaming at his editors here. This rules. [Jordan laughs]

David  33:52  
Think Victor was like, the last chapter is gonna just be blank. [Jordan laughs]

Jordan  33:57  
I also did like the moment where it was like, um, they meet this one dude who's like writing the book while they're talking to him. And he's just like, yeah, so we actually have to rely on, uh, our gods, which are readers. [Alissa laughs] We call them readers. You see? 

David  34:13  
Yeah.

Jordan  34:13  
If they don't like this series, we're all gonna die, [Alissa laughs] basically. And then another guy was like, yeah, it's a shame, uh, the next scenario we were going to go with we were going to make the werewolves stuff into a, uh, into a virus but damn, hmm, that's where we were heading by the way.

Alissa  34:31  
Oh, my brain was turning into pudding as I was reading [Alissa laughs] this, I was like. [Alissa laughs]

David  34:35  
I've read this twice, and I still was like, What the fuck is going on? And I just gave up I was like, Jordan will figure out what happens at the end. 

Jordan  34:41  
I loved it. 

David  34:42  
I know you did. 

Jordan  34:43  
It was so ridiculous. I was just like, oh fuck yeah, dude, go in. Fucking tear these guys apart. [Alissa laughs]

David  34:50  
I think though, as our readers when we the talk about as much as we loved it, some things that we really wish it could have done different and maybe we wouldn't have had to have had this episode. [Alissa and Jordan laugh] Alissa, why don't you do us the honor of really telling us what is something you really think the series could have done differently that I I don't even know what to say? Yeah. What's something you think the series could have done differently? [David says something unintelligible]

Alissa  35:10  
Yeah, I think this could-

David  35:11  
I think I'm really out of it, I guess.

Alissa  35:12  
I feel like he needs to know his focus of things that he likes and the things that he wants to do and just kind of sit in that and like and discover the world that we that's a cool world like he he could have just like, let us do maybe some more like werewolf hunts. And you could like maybe meet characters along the way as you're going on these werewolf hunts. Maybe instead of taking like a train to the hunter arc, they could have like, traveled there by like foot or like a couple of different carts or something and like kind of met people along the way. So that way, when these characters are introduced, you kind of like slowly like finding out about them. You're finding out about the world, there's moments where you can kind of like dive into like how this world works and see more of these like fun like Tim Burton like designs, and, um, rather than kind of like being stuck in a box, um, midway through.

Jordan  35:59  
None of these characters outright look like shit. 

Alissa  36:01  
Yeah. 

Jordan  36:02  
Like, they all seem like they could be genuinely good characters, but I can't focus on all of them at once.

Alissa  36:08  
Exactly. What this story is doing, and I don't know if you've read or watched, uh, Princess Tutu? 

David  36:15  
No, I haven't. 

Alissa  36:16  
So Princess Tutu is extremely similar in what it does with the fourth wall breaking, there's a character of basically exactly like Geppetto in this where they're like the storyteller, and they're telling the story, but the way that it's presented is a lot more like clean it's like earning it and you're like seeing these characters kind of tackle like how we fight with like the writer of the story and how we kind of because it's all it's also based on fan like a fairy tales. It really seems that this care this creator either was influenced by Princess Tutu, or just it's, I don't know, got really lucky and being really similar in that case, [David giggles] like the problem with this is that they're trying to do this fourth wall breaking without really printing the world to break the wall. 

David  36:58  
Yeah.

Jordan  36:59  
You got to set it up before you knock it down. 

Alissa  37:01  
There's just so little setup and I wish it was just like focus more on like, just get rid of Velou as a character. Cut Velou out,

Jordan  37:08  
Grimm and Debonair. 

Alissa  37:09  
Right? 

Jordan  37:09  
That's your whole fuckin series right there. The quickest change I could make to this series just to make it instantly better. So here's what I'm thinking he gets on the train, time skip three months, we're done-

Alissa  37:21  
Uh, huh.

Jordan  37:21  
Over. He's a hunter, don't fucking worry about it. [Alissa grunts in agreement] Now him and Grimm can go back to participating in the actual manga that we're reading. Okay, cool.

Alissa  37:29  
Yeah. 

David  37:30  
This series didn't have a time skip.

Jordan  37:31  
Yeah, that's true. [Alissa and David laugh] That's so weird.

David  37:35  
Yeah, that's a great idea. I think skipping it. Another idea I had was like, it would have been great if they just had an arc like I always been one of the best things Naruto ever did was they had the Land of Waves Arc before the Chunin Exam. [Alissa grunts in agreement] And so they could have just had an arc where they just go on a normal ass mission. Maybe those two wolves instead of attacking the town, she's like, there was a son of more wolves, we got to go hunt them down. And it's like, you know, they spent two or three chapters literally infiltrating where the wolves live and killing them and making like a plan of like, when you're on the offense. What's it like to be a hunter instead of being on the defense? 

Alissa  38:00  
Yeah.

David  38:00  
The two wolves that was really pointless. I get that it was to destroy the town. But that was again the author over selling things. He didn't need to physically destroy the hamlet to make the character want to leave. 

Alissa  38:10  
Yeah.

Jordan  38:11  
I didn't want them to leave the fucking village. What if they just stayed in the goddamn village, they already set up a thing where once you kill a werewolf, other werewolves come and try and take its place because they're territorial. You created a mechanism through which you will keep having new bad guys come to take take you down. And then they could just be like, Yeah, I called up help from the Hunter's Guild or whatever. And then a new character shows up and then they join the town to help and now you're slowly building up a roster of characters [Alissa groans] and getting to know the people in this little hamlet.

Alissa  38:41  
You can build up the hamlet too.

Jordan  38:43  
Exactly.

David  38:44  
That'd be cool. And they have to like build up this base. Damn.

Jordan  38:47  
You ever see Tremors? 

David  38:49  
Yeah. 

Jordan  38:49  
Yeah, it's kind of like that, where like the whole town just gets together and tries to help itself like. 

Alissa  38:54  
Oh, yeah, that would be fun. 

Jordan  38:56  
Yeah, it will be fun.

David  38:58  
But you know what else is fun? [Alissa laughs]

Jordan  38:59  
What?

David  39:00  
Talking about our miscellaneous thoughts. [Alissa laughs] Alissa, I'm excited about what you've got to say because it's usually actually pretty rare that um one of the guests really has a miscellany thought they want to talk about so you set the bar really high, [Alissa laughs] so lay it on us.

Alissa  39:13  
I want this artist to create a Dirty Pair style women's wrestler comic where two characters [Jordan laughs] in the similar vein of Grimm and, uh, Debonair. They just go on, missions and adventures and do cool stuff and sure you can make it fantasy if you want. I don't care but you obviously know what you want. You know what we like. This is what everyone

Jordan  39:34  
Yeah.

Alissa  39:34  
Everyone sees Red Hood and they're like yes that thick brick shithouse Grimm Riding Hood. Amazing, stunning, spectacular. Let's do that. Kill it like he he would be like King of manga [Alissa laughs]. Especially-

Jordan  39:47  
Yes. 

David  39:47  
Yeah.

Jordan  39:47  
He would.

Alissa  39:48  
Now there's this like trend towards these like tough like like muscular women style characters. Especially you see like like Noi from like Dorohedoro.

Jordan  39:57  
Yeah, Noi rules.

Alissa  39:58  
And like really up the camp. Like this comic had a lot of camp going for it I like camp but I think it tried to be too serious and therefore like kind of like ruins the camp of it. So cool it was just like read writing good but she's like going around like punching people homie like Debonair comes up starts punching people and then just like beating these wolves that would be hilarious fun like the characters are fun you'd love like the see these like goofy like like straight man kind of funny man that they would have like a dynamic kind of thing like it would just be a good time and that's all I want from Red Hood and I this artists.

Jordan  40:32  
Especially if they were both like wrestlers. Dude, just oh my god just make a female wrestling manga, are you fucking kidding me?

David  40:38  
It could be mud wrestling. He's really good at drawing [Alissa laughs] as we saw. [Jordan laughs]

Alissa  40:42  
Also do want to talk about the wolfonium. I hate that name. Wolfonium was stupid. So they're like, oh, it's not silver. I'm like, oh, ooh, it's not silver. So what kind of stone is it? I'm thinking like, Okay, gotta be platinum. That would be cool. [Jordan shrieks] What a twist. Platinum, because it's like it's it's like super silver right? And then they just make up this stupid [David laughs] wolfonium like, at least come up with a better name. Not just like [Jordan laughs].

Jordan  41:01  
It was so good.

David  41:03  
Well, yeah, and that's the main thing I was gonna get into is there's already a material that is named after wolves. 

Jordan  41:10  
Here we go. 

David  41:11  
Tungsten, which is a major component of wolframite. Which guess what it's well known for being is being really heavy, which they say is the problem with silver is silver isn't dense enough. The actual element already fucking exists. That's why Tungsten [Jordan laughs] is W on the periodic table, because it's for wolframite.

Alissa  41:29  
You were so close.

Jordan  41:30  
Reading that again, today. I got to wolfonium I was like, is this this is like an intentional joke? Like?

Alissa  41:36  
Did you miss the point on purpose? [Alissa laughs]

Jordan  41:39  
Yeah, I do also want to say something. So we did a series a little while ago called i tell c, which me and David are very divided upon, but at the very end, something happens where it has two female characters kiss each other and Shonen Jump like censors it because, like, it's a well known thing, Shonen Jump does not like depicting girls kissing each other, or I mean, I'm sure they don't like men kissing each other either. But there was a moment in like, literally the last fucking chapter of this series-

Alissa  42:11  
Yeah.

Jordan  42:12  
Where Debonair is like walks over to Cinderella and is like, Hold on one sec. And he she picks her up, and we'd hear smooch [Alissa laughs] we see smooching sound effects, and then she's just like, why did you do and isn't and she's like, Oh, I just did that because I knew it was something that you wouldn't like. And I read that and I was like- 

Alissa  42:30  
Yeah. 

Jordan  42:31  
Oh, that's him talking to the editors. He's like I did this because I knew you wouldn't like that.

Alissa  42:36  
Those last three chapters are so bitter. [Alissa laughs]

Jordan  42:39  
They're so bitter. I love it. 

Alissa  42:41  
As far as I remember they gave you three chapters to end your story when they say your cancelled, and so that was the point when he was like, Okay, fuck you guys. Like this is what I wanted to do. I'm just gonna put it all in here. Also, I'm going to talk about like narrative and it's just me talking to you, the reader and also just doing a bunch of shit for like shonen like talking about like shonen and narrative and all this stuff. So it's like, I think he's aware of some of these tropes and things that he is trying to and working with, like, maybe this is a problem where this author had like a really bad editor who was like, making him do a bunch of stuff that like- 

Jordan  42:41  
Yeah.

Alissa  42:46  
Wasn't fine. Like, wasn't what he wanted to do. 

Jordan  43:16  
What if like, the reason why there's so many exam arcs is because the editors keep pushing them to make exam arcs?

David  43:24  
But it is a very low hanging fruit.

Alissa  43:26  
I mean, the way this bitterness feels I I would not be surprised at all if like a lot of the choices about Red Hood that made Red Hood not work were from, um, editorial or Shonen Jump politics because I it does seem like you know, there's so much inspiration in this artist and like this artist wants to do a lot of unique things, but they're trying to like there's a lot of these weird like super shonen-y things that show up that are kind of in dissonance with what he was already doing or what made it unique so I can totally see like a lot of the choices and a lot of things that he writes as being like you're a puppet for the like system to change the world and to what you don't want to do. [Jordan laughs] If you just read that those last three chapters is him just like telling everyone why he's like it's like a call for help. 

Jordan  44:09  
Yeah. 

Alissa  44:09  
I can see that as just like a direct like this is what happened to me why Red Hood turned out this way.

Jordan  44:14  
He literally has Debonair turned to Grimm and say hey, you your character sucks now What the fuck?

Alissa  44:19  
Yep. 

David  44:19  
Alissa you'd really enjoy reading Time Paradox Ghost Writer, which is literally about this topic.

Alissa  44:23  
Oh, okay, wonderful.

Jordan  44:24  
Oh, yeah.

David  44:19  
But unfortunately we don't have time to go into it but it's one of our favorite series so far. So one last thing I just wanted to say is just a quick joke, where I was just thinking about all the tools in the Hunter's kit and it made me think of Bone Collection, Jordan. [Jordan groans] Imagine if one of the devises was a Nintendo Witch, because remember they had the Svitch. [Alissa and Jordan laughs] As we round things up, why don't we go to the Final Verdict where really we just kinda say ultimately what we thought of this series. Let me start with some of our awesome fan written, uh, six word summaries. So it's no surprise we had a shitload of them. So, first one, from Tucker, Art is cool when it is discernable. He had a second one that I don't want to read so you [Alissa laughs] can ask him what it was. [Jordan Laughs] Then we have [David laughs] from Hassan, I'm stuck Big Bad Wolf Oni-Chan. [Alissa, David and Jordan laugh] From ChemyChems, Thicc women but not thick story. [Jordan groans]. T Wolfwood, who is listening to this recording right now, Debonair's awesome, plot derails into uniqueness. Albie, BONK! [Alissa laughs] Go to horny jail y'all, who is also listening so thank you for submitting that. Kirbymon, Execution should have involved more executing. Agpuh said, Huff, Huff, Puff and Blew the pacing.

Jordan  45:29  
Nice.

David  45:31  
Xylon said, once upon a time, THICC WOMEN. The final one from our listeners, The Laughing Fool, cake can't save your thin premise. [Alissa and Jordan laugh] This is a really, really great episode for fan ones. If-I don't think anything's topped the record where Candy Flurry we had like nine [Alissa laughs], but these were really fantastic. And yeah, if people wanna submit theirs, we're always taking them, uh, just feel free to join the discord and then I'll say hey, this is what we're reading and then just send it to me and then it's awesome. I really appreciate everyone whose been writing such terrific ones. But, Jordan, why don't you read off yours to us?

Jordan  46:00  
Fourthwall can't contain that [Alissa laughs] ass. 

David  46:02  
[laughs] Fuck that's really good. [laughing] How about you, Alissa?

Alissa  46:05  
Yuki, [Jordan laughs] make a woman Dressler comic. [Jordan laughing]

David  46:09  
That's good. [laughing] Mine was plot that gets stuck in oatmeal. [everyone laughs] I was proud of that one so I'm [laughing] glad you guys liked it. Next up, flop or not. So I, ehhh, I'll say this is the worst series that we considered not a flop we've read. 

Jordan  46:25  
Yeah.

David  46:26  
I read it in real time. And I didn't drop it. Unlike Zipman!!, which I did drop. 

Jordan  46:30  
It's right on that line, man. 

David  46:31  
It's just lik,e um, Secure, uhh, uhh fuck, Mitama Security where it's just like you really got to make a judgment call if it was a flop or not. 

Jordan  46:39  
I really respect this author got super bitter towards the end. I thought that was [laughing] really awesome. So I-I'm basing on that. I'm gonna say it's not a flop. 

Alissa  46:48  
M'kay, okay.

Jordan  46:50  
I think at the very least, you should check out the last three chapters of this series because it's something I've never seen in Shonen Jump before I can tell you that.

David  46:57  
I-I thought you were just gonna say, I can't not respect that [Alissa laughs] ass. 

Jordan  47:01  
Well, I think I've made it pretty clear. I can't not respect that ass. [David laughs]

David  47:05  
[laughing] So-so, Alissa, how about you? Was this a flop or not?

Alissa  47:09  
I would agree that it is a difficult choice to make. But when I, like, sit back and think about, you know, what it means to be a flop. I think that it's a flop that you should read like there's [David laughs] nothing wrong with being a flop. You can be a flop. We're having a good time floppin'.

Jordan  47:10  
Yeah. [Alissa laughs] 

David  47:23  
We're flippity floppity.

Jordan  47:24  
Flopping all around here. Yeah.

David  47:26  
So though that means that, Alissa, you have the unique thing of saying what should  someone check out instead. 

Jordan  47:33  
Well, I know you already [laughing] told.

David  47:35  
I know you said, oh, [Jordan laughs] instead of reading [laughing] Ra- Red Hood, read Red Hood.

Alissa  47:39  
If you liked Red Hood, I-you know, you should read Red Hood it's good time but if you actually want to read something that's good [Jordan laughs] and, like, will keep your attention for a while, I think you've got two choices, and you can watch these both simultaneously and get essentially what would be the experience of what Red Hood wanted to be from watching, um, Princess Tutu, um, or reading Dorohedoro because then you've got all the fun, like, imagery of Red Hood from Dorohedoro and a lot of, like, the grunge that really makes Red Hood's, like, visuals pop and, like, the fantasy aspects but if you want that, like, fourth wall breaking, like, fanat-like, fairy tale kind of bit but with like a twist, umm, idea Princess Tutu is gonna hook you up. It's an all time classic.

David  48:18  
I've heard about it in passing but now I'll definitely have to check it out.

Jordan  48:21  
Also, I will say I know I said it wasn't a flop but, like, if you're interested in reading, uhh, better series that handles the-this fourth wall shit in an amazing way. God, just really just read Grant Morrison's Animal Man run. It's the first thing I thought of when this series just started doing that.

David  48:39  
I 100% that's what I was gonna agree if it was a flop, so that's why Jordan's my co-host [Alissa laughs] is because we both have the same idea sometimes. Which is great.

Jordan  48:45  
We finish each other's...

Alissa  48:46  
MmmMMmm.

David  48:47  
 Sandwiches. 

Jordan  48:47  
Yeah. [David and Alissa laugh]

David  48:50  
I miss Arrested Development when it was good. [Alissa and Jordan laugh] And so final question though for you, Jordan, is so is this the best thing we've ever read? 

Jordan  48:58  
No. 

David  48:58  
No. [Jordan laughs] Definitely read Time Paradox Ghostwriter, Alissa, if you ever wanna check out a series that-that was probably the biggest, like, hidden gem we've ever discovered from the show. 

Jordan  49:07  
Yeah. 

David  49:07  
Along with probably Moriking is number two. 

Jordan  49:09  
Yeah, I wo-I would agree [David laughs] with that. 

David  49:11  
Now that we have given our final thoughts, why don't we wrap things up with our shout outs where we can hear really a lot more about what awesome work Alissa's been doing. Props to Jordan for making the opening and ending theme, being a great co-host and helping with the editing. Props to Merliel for awesome coverart. You can find her online @liel_mer. That's L-I-E-L underscore M-E-R. She is our new artist. She's doing some awesome work. So as much as we miss Shannon, you know, she got busy with school, but she did some absolutely fantastic-she might have one more piece of art for us. Fingers crossed. Uh, we'll see how that goes. And I also want to give thanks to Nigel for being our generous art benefactor. I also want to give thanks to Tucker who's listening to this recording right now so he knows for sure that [laughs] we're crediting him in the recording for his awesome help with pronunciation, translation, other miscellaneous research, and I also want to give a thanks to Nicole for helping with social media, and a thanks to Luke for being our community producer. He runs our book club, he comes up with a lot of really great community nights. And really, we wouldn't have had such a terrific and welcoming discord community without all this hard work. And, uh, how about you, Jordan?

Jordan  50:09  
I would like to give thanks to, uh, to David, on this--

David  50:12  
Aw, thank you.

Jordan  50:12  
--week of Thanksgiving.

Alissa  50:14  
Awww.

David  50:15  
Awww, I'm thankful for [Alissa laughs] you, buddy.

Jordan  50:16  
And I hope that you eat a turkey [Alissa laughs] and it's good.

David  50:20  
Oh, man, I just hope that turkey's as jive as you. 

Jordan  50:22  
Ohhhhh.

Alissa  50:23  
Ayyyy. 

Jordan  50:24  
Okay. Cool. [Alissa laughs] All right. [David laughs] No, and-and thank--

David  50:28  
[laughing] Jordan...

Jordan  50:28  
--you. And thank you so much, Alissa, for being on. You were a real-you've been a really great guest.

Alissa  50:28  
Aww, yeah. 

Jordan  50:28  
Thank you for coming.

Alissa  50:32  
Thanks for having me. It's a great time.

David  50:34  
 Though, Alissa, where can they find you?

Alissa  50:35  
So you guys can find me on Twitter or Instagram @sallataire, um, S-A-L-L-A-T-A-I-R-E or you can just google search my name, um, because I'm, like, the only Alissa Sallah [laughs] around. [David and Jordan laugh] Um, you can also find me. Um, I-ah,find me with my new book, uh, Weeaboo. Um, so you just like search Weeaboo graphic novel? I-I mean, theoretically, that should get it. [laughing] Um, it's a book from Oni Press, uh, just came out, um, this week. So, uh, I guess last week. It's a, like, a young adult story, um, coming of age about three weebs kind of finding out the difference between reality and fantasy and how friendship is a lot more complicated than a story in a book or a fairy tale. Um, very simi-you know, it's-Red Hood has a lot of similarities. [everyone laughs]

David  51:27  
That's really awesome. I'll have to talk with Luke and maybe we'll be able to do it for book club some time, and if you want we-to-to talk-to join us for that conversation. We actually almost had Casey Green join when we did the Graveyard Book--

Alissa  51:37  
Oh my God.

David  51:37  
--and then he, uh, said I don't do that. [Jordan laughs]

Alissa  51:39  
I love Casey Green's The Anime Club is one of the--

Jordan  51:42  
He's amazing.

Alissa  51:43  
--best comedy comics ever made.

David  51:45  
I was gonna ask if that was an influence [Alissa laughs] on your-your [laughing] book.

Alissa  51:47  
Kind of? 

Jordan  51:48  
Oh, it's so good.

Alissa  51:48  
I mean, Anime Club is a little bit more, um, like comedy then I think I was going a little bit more sincere [laughing] than Anime Club but Anime Club is a great--

David  51:56  
Yeah.

Alissa  51:57  
--time. [laughs]

David  51:59  
Awesome. And then, uh, you know what else is a great time? 

Jordan  52:02  
The Shonen Flop discord! [Alissa laughs]

David  52:05  
Yeah, come hang out with us to talk about anime, games, or whatever else is on your mind. As we talked about, we got book club and regular movie nights. Our next one is Diehard. I think it'll be coming out-this episode will come out like two days before that. So be sure to join us. Ah, we have monthly polls. I'm really excited for January where I keep talking about we're gonna watch Dredd 3D. And I think it's finally going to happen.

Jordan  52:22  
That's right, listener. We are cliche enough to fucking watch [Alissa laughs] Die Hard during Christmas. 

David  52:28  
Yes, [Jordan laughs] it was-it was Die Hards vs Gremlins [laughing] for what Christmas movie we watched and you can find a link to it in our show notes. I also want to say if you've been enjoying the podcast and want to help us keep going consider subscribing to our Patreon. We have a ton of awesome perks ranging from exclusive mini episodes, deleted scenes, and you can even help us pick what series we cover next. Find that at patreon.com/shonenflop. On that note, I want to give a shout out to PterodactylGhost for being a Chainsaw Man patron and TWolfwood, Marty, THEBBKINGBBTHE, [Jordan laughs] Gabe, Mark, OverratedApples, Matt and Albie for being King of the [Alissa laughs] Forest. And if you're not ready for a regular commitment consider buying some merch. We have a ton of awesome designs ranging from the much requested Gomez moon and Mashle punching Harry Potter shirts, and even the cover art for this episode. It'll be the first, uh, piece of merch by our new artist so that's really exciting. If we can get some people, uh, you know, being on fleek or whatever the kids [Jordan laughs] say these days. 

Jordan  53:17  
It's a collector's item, you know? 

David  53:18  
Yes, a collector's item. Yes. Ummm, but no worries if you can't help the show off financially, if you could like, rate, review or just tell a friend about the show. It really means a lot just introducing the show to your friends. You can find us on Twitter @shonenflopcast and our website shonenflop.com. We're also on Spotify, iTunes, YouTube, or wherever else you get your podcast. Now I just want to play a promo here depending on how many promos I end up getting cause, you know, don't have to make any new [Alissa laughs] audio so 500 IQ [Alissa laughs] editing move right there. David, you're just so smart. [Jordan laughs] And you're definitely not the reason why your sister-your grandma doesn't talk to you anymore. [Jordan and Alissa laugh] Um, alright. So...

Simping for Senpai Podcast  53:50  
Do you like anime? Do you want to get into anime? Do you want to know what's going on in the world of anime? If you answered yes to any of these questions, then you should come check out the Simping for Senpai podcast. We like to talk about a bunch of animes also try to get other than you viewers into anime, read manga, and also try to spring our addiction of waifus but if you want to simp, simp for us at the Simping for Senpai podcast. We're available in a majority of your podcast apps. 

Deal with the Devils Podcast  54:08  
Hey, do you like football? Wait, wait, don't hit that skip button. What about manga? What about a sports manga written and illustrated by two pillars of recent Weekly Shonen Jump? In that case, come listen to Deal with the Devils and join hosts Derek and James along with the revolving cast of guests as we cover Riichiro Inagaki and Yusuke Murata's Eyeshield 21 volume by volume. Find the show anchor.fm/devilbatpod and on Twitter @devilbatpod. Yah ha! Yeah!! [explosion]

David  54:33  
[outro music] Thanks so much for joining us. This has been David. 

Jordan  54:38  
This has been Jordan. 

Alissa  54:39  
And this has been Alissa. 

David  54:40  
And you've been listening to Shonen Flop. 

Jordan  54:42  
Keep on flopping, floppers. 

David  54:44  
Yeah.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai