Things can be pretty wild when you can talk to Animals.
This episode we and our guest Rob from Dad Needs To Talk discuss Tsuyoshi Takaki’s Jump Square manga Black Torch.
Show Notes:
- Special thanks to our Chainsaw Man patron Pterodactyl Ghost who as a patron was able to request we make an episode covering this series. You can become a patron, help support the show, and get other exclusive perks at patreon.com/shonenflop
- You can reach us at Twitter @shonenflopcast or email us shonenflop@gmail.com
- Episode art by Merliel (IG: mer_liel)
- You can find our guest at https://dadneedstotalk.com/
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[Transcript by OzyRat]
David 0:00
[Intro music] Welcome to this episode Shonen Flop, where we talk about manga series and Shonen Jump that didn't make it big. I'm David.
Jordan 0:17
I'm Jordan.
David 0:18
And this week we're talking about Black Torch, and we're joined by our guest today, Rob. Rob, thank you so much for joining us.
Jordan 0:24
Yeahhh.
Rob 0:24
Yeah. Glad to be here.
David 0:25
Rob, do you mind telling the audience a little bit about yourself?
Rob 0:27
Yeah. My name is Rob and I am the host of Dad Needs to Talk podcast [Jordan laughs] where I talk about... yeah, as the name suggests, [David laughs] I am a-I am a dad, a father of five.
David 0:37
Holy crap.
Rob 0:38
Yeah. [laughs]
Jordan 0:38
Whoa!
David 0:40
That's one for every volume of this manga.
Jordan 0:42
Yeah. [Jordan and Rob laugh]]
David 0:43
Just imagine, like, that's such a good transition. I just stopped, brah, like, I'm-I'm verbally--
Jordan 0:47
Shut up [indecipherable]
David 0:48
--shoving Rob out of the way to just get to the manga details [Jordan and Rob laugh] No, Rob, please keep going.
Rob 0:52
Yeah, Father of five, youngest son is named Vash. In some places of the internet, I'm also known as Father of Vash, because that is very literal.
Jordan 0:59
[David and Jordan laugh] Yes, yes it is.
Rob 1:01
And yeah, so I talk about my adventures in fatherhood, manga, anime and video games.
Jordan 1:07
Heck yeah.
David 1:08
I love it. So do your other kids also-so do you have, like-like, a little Naruto? And, like, a Goku running around? Or [Rob laughs] is Vash, like, the only anime reference or was it, like, one that your wife, like, didn't realize [Jordan laughs] until she looked it up? There was a pro-Magic the Gathering player and his wife was like, our kid cannot be a Magic reference. And he slipped it under, he [Jordan laughs] named his kid Naya, which is, like, uh, a nickname of, like, a three-color Magic combination.
Rob 1:29
Yeah.
David 1:29
And then he got divorced, like, three years later. So I guess--
Rob 1:29
Oh no.
David 1:30
--I don't want to say that's why they got [Rob laughs] divorced. But I would not have been surprised if that came up in the laughing] divorce hearings.
Jordan 1:38
[Rob laughs] I think that that is a sign of other things [laughing] that could--
Rob 1:43
Yeah.
Jordan 1:43
--[laughing] lead to a divorce.
David 1:44
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Rob 1:46
Luckily, I didn't have, uh, didn't have that issue when it-when it came to name him. And unfortunately, I-I didn't have the option with the older 'cuz-so Vash is the youngest of the five--
David 1:56
Mmhm.
Rob 1:56
--because my wife already had the older four when I met her years ago.
Jordan 1:59
Mmmm.
Rob 1:59
But, hey, if history could have turned out differently, I definitely would have tried to work in some nerdy names somewhere here and there with them. But-but--
David 2:07
Mmhm.
Rob 2:08
--luckily, my wife is also a big nerd. And when I was like, hey, if we have a son, I want to name him Vash. [Jordan laughs] Luckily, she had no problem with it, because I was like, hey, just give me the first name. You can have the middle name. I don't care. [Jordan and Rob laugh] Just give me this.
Jordan 2:23
That's the important one.
Rob 2:24
Yes, [David laughs] exactly.
David 2:26
That is pretty great. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 2:28
It helps that Vash is a cool name that doesn't immediately make you think oh, is that a weird anime name?
Rob 2:34
Exactly. [David laughs] That is the awesome part about it is because when I'm somewhere or wherever and I mention that I have a kid named that is either a if you know you know or is oh, that's a unique name.
Jordan 2:46
Yeah.
David 2:46
It's really a litmus test to see, you know, if you were an anime watching piece of shit in the late 90s or not.
Rob 2:52
[Jordan laughs] Yes, 'cuz I love it. Anytime I have him with me, like, if I'm, uh, in a comic bookstore or just like Barnes and Noble somewhere where I'm buying manga, and he's doing-doing what Vash does- running around. [laughs]
David 3:04
Yup.
Rob 3:05
And I'm like, hey, Vash, come here. And I can't lie. It brings me joy. Every time I hear somebody like, their ears perk up. They're like, wait, sorry to bother you did-did you just say-did you just say Vash?
Jordan 3:15
Vash the Stampede is in here? He's got an immense bounty on him. That's like [Rob laughs] sixty billion double dollars! Everybody quick!
Rob 3:21
Vash the Stampede? I'm like, yes, yes, it is. [Jordan and Rob laugh]
Jordan 3:25
Hell yeah. Just make sure he keeps both of his arms as all I'm saying.
Rob 3:29
Yes. [laughs]
David 3:30
I am all about it. But you know what else I'm all about?
Jordan 3:34
Black Torch?
David 3:35
Getting into the manga details.
Jordan 3:36
Yeah!
David 3:37
Let's do it, guys. [Rob laughs] So this series was created by Tsuyoshi Takaki who was known for other works including Heart Gear which is ongoing but is on hiatus. So--
Jordan 3:47
Ooh.
David 3:47
--very Hunter x Hunter inspired and then he also created the oneshot Freaks and Unreal.
Jordan 3:52
Wait, Unreal? Like the-the vid-the video game?
David 3:55
This is actually Cliff Bleszinski's [Rob laughs] Japanese name. [David and Jordan laugh] Tucker's gonna do Tucker Reports like, actually, if you rearranged the katakana, you do get Guy Huge. [Jordan laughs] But his series ran from December 31, 2016 to July 11, 2018. So it actually started on my birthday.
Jordan 4:14
Oh, yeah.
Rob 4:15
Nice.
Jordan 4:16
I brought that up in the chibi, David. Way to steal my dumb joke. [Rob laughs]
David 4:21
I'm still so hurt. I flew to Italy for my birthday. And Border Patrol looked at my passport and they didn't wish me a happy birthday. And I was [Rob laughs] so fucking disappointed.
Jordan 4:31
Goddammit!
David 4:31
Right? I was like, are you kidding me? Just because it's 4am in the morning. You can't wish me a happy birthday? [everyone laughs]
Jordan 4:37
I feel you. That is something that would upset you a lot.
David 4:39
Rachel was like, he didn't wish you a happy birthday. [Rob laughs] She knew. She knew. But as we talked about, this series-the author was actually inspired by the number of kids Rob has [Jordan and Rob laugh] by being five volumes in 19 chapters much like the number of children I had.
Jordan 4:54
19 kids.
David 4:56
Yes. [laughs] Oh. [Jordan laughs]
Rob 4:59
Now everybody introduce yourselves.
Jordan 5:01
David as 19 Kids and Counting. [everyone laughs]
David 5:06
That cover art would have made no sense. [everyone still laughing]
Jordan 5:09
[laughing] No.
David 5:10
Totally fine we did the Wild Thornberrys 'cuz actually lined up very well that there are six Wild Thornberry characters and there are six members of the org but what-what's this org I'm talking about?
Jordan 5:20
I don't know.
David 5:20
Why don't we get into the plot description that I actually wrote.
Jordan 5:24
This is a David joint this time.
David 5:26
So, Jordan, why don't you take it away?
Jordan 5:28
All right, Jirou Azuma is just your regular high schooler, gets into fights, has no parents, and, of course, can talk to animals. Everything's going fine until he runs into Rago, the Black Star of Doom, a type of demon known as a mononoke that also happens to look like a cat. Rago is an extremely powerful mononoke that a bunch of different factions are looking for. Jirou tries to protect Rago from a particularly strong mononoke but gets impaled because his gimmick of trying to make people attack his coat doesn't work on actually skilled opponents with, like, powers and stuff like that. I would just like to say, by the way, every single time that mononoke is written here, it was misspelled. I just want to throw that out. So that people [Rob laughs] are aware of this.
David 6:12
I also want to throw out that Jordan didn't write the plot summary. And so I had to do it. [laughing] So...
Jordan 6:17
Yeah, yeah. [Rob and Jordan laugh] And thank you so much, David. I really do appreciate it.
David 6:22
And for the record, I spelled it wrong every time on purpose because Jordan was going to do a cleanup pass on it and I wanted to make sure he actually did. It's like how rock' n' roll musicians had that, like, no brown M&M thing.
Jordan 6:33
That is specifically [Rob laughs] Van Halen. But yes, yes.
David 6:37
Vash Halen!
Rob 6:38
Oh, I like it.
Jordan 6:40
But anyway, Rago fuses with Jirou becoming his heart, which is weird because this came out years before Chainsaw Man so I guess this is just a [Rob laughs] Parasyte rip-off. However, Rago can still appear outside of Jirou so then, fusing was kind of pointless, narratively speaking, when you think about it. Jirou wakes up at a hospital under the custody of the Bureau of Espionage, a top-secret spy association that deals with fighting mononoke, and everyone in it is pretty much the heir of a spy clan. On that note, we find that Jirou's Grandpa is also a badass motherfucker mononoke spy-hunting guy but that doesn't matter for, like, 14 chapters so, you know, don't worry about it too much. Popcorn, David.
David 7:18
Jirou goes on several adventures with the Bureau of Espionage doing a bunch of random missions [laughing] that don't really advance the plot forward as there's no end goal for the series. [Jordan laughs] On the way, he makes new allies--
Jordan 7:29
You're so brutal [David and Jordan laugh] in this plot summary.
David 7:31
[David and Jordan still laughing] I know. And I like this series but I was like, wow, did I like this series when I was writing it? On the way--
Jordan 7:37
I know!
David 7:38
--he makes new allies for the Bureau and further grows his powers as someone fused with the Black Star of Doom. Rago eventually get-I keep wanting to call him Ragu.
Jordan 7:46
[everyone laughs] I do too! Yeah. [Jordan and Rob laugh]
David 7:47
Ragu eventually gets separated by Jirou, kinda, as he can still use his powers and, again, it's weird their fused because Ragu can literally fuck off and it doesn't cause any issues. Jirou goes into the woods where mononoke live to become more powerful, or something, and meets a giant titty [everyone laughs]] mononoke.
Jordan 8:04
Oh yeah. Yeah, he does. Yeah, he [laughing] does.
David 8:07
Which is actually, I think, the only female character in the series that had giant boobs because author just straight up said, I am an--
Jordan 8:08
Yeah.
David 8:08
--ass man. So, [Rob laughs] God bless you.
Jordan 8:15
I would say more a leg man.
David 8:17
Oh, yeah, that's true.
Rob 8:18
Mmmmhmmm. Mmmhmmm.
Jordan 8:19
But you know, that goes with asses.
David 8:21
There's also Amagi who is a very evil mononoke. Who has evil plans to do something evil. He eats other mononoke to gain power so he's super-duper evil. He apparently used to be a village guardian, but became a utilitarian obsessed with making sacrifices to save many and probably invests in NFT's. As such, he wants everyone to give him power so he can become a god and protect everyone or something. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 8:43
And then he can use that power to gain ownership of a URL.
David 8:46
Yes, that [Rob laughs] has monkeys that all look slightly different. [everyone laughs]
Jordan 8:51
Well, other mononokes but yeah.
David 8:51
Yes, slightly different mononoke. [Jordan laughs] Popcorn, Rob.
Rob 8:56
So Jirou eventually comes back out of the woods and now can use his full powers for 15 minutes as it's legally required in shonen that super forms have a time limit. The entire squad gets together and they decide they're going to attack Amagi's HQ so they can save Rago. Jirou and Amagi have a fight and some mononoke palace thing [laughs] while giving very cheesy dialogue which somehow works because in my canon this is set in the Lethal Weapon universe. [David laughs] Very true. Jirou manages to defeat Amagi with a really badass punch, and after almost dying in a Metroid-style escape [laughs] from a crumbling fortress, is rescued by his squad. It jumps to two days later and we have a ton of fun character interactions while they may have defeated the bad guy, the adventure continues.
Jordan 9:48
Yes, it ends like that kind of flop.
David 9:51
[Rob laughs] Yeah. [laughs]
Jordan 9:53
I knew you were gonna think that punch was badass, David, because it-I saw that and I was like, oh my god, this is like-this reminds me of the Gurren Lagann ending holy shit.
David 10:00
Which is a very [Rob laughs] good anime and everyone in the discord agrees with me, right, Jordan?
Jordan 10:05
Uh, well, I mean the people who aren't going to be banned [Rob laughs] soon, uh, definitely all agree with you, I would say. [laughs]
David 10:11
You're-you're right. I'm going to ban everyone on the discord that's not a patron, wink, [David and Jordan laugh] who doesn't like Gurren Lagann?
Jordan 10:16
I support that. It's a good-ass series. It's David's favorite series.
David 10:20
And I'll go into the Lethal Weapon [laughing] thing in Miscellaneous Thoughts. [Jordan and Rob laugh] You can also tell by the way I wrote this because Jordan doesn't put a ton of, like, pop culture [laughing] references in the description. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 10:30
Yeah. Which character in this is anti-Semitic though?
David 10:32
I think you know. There's a lot of--
Jordan 10:33
Yeah, yeah.
David 10:34
--evil people with horns. One of the characters just says banks are controlled by the mononoke, and he does mononoke in finger quotes. [Rob laughs]
Well, there were echoes-they were, like, parentheses around the word mononoke when he said it. It was very strange.
Parentheticals actually--
Jordan 10:51
Yeah.
David 10:51
--is the word to [Rob laughs] mean-describe with multiple parentheses.
Jordan 10:54
Oh, thank you. I see.--
David 10:55
Yeah.
Jordan 10:55
--I see. How do you spell mononoke again?
David 10:57
Mana the-the Jews control Israel anyway, let's go to characters. [everyone laughs] That's not controversial. That's just a fact. [laughs] There was an article that said "Do Jews Control Israel?" [laughs] That's my favorite conspiracy theory parody article.
Jordan 11:14
Yeah, yeah. I was gonna [laughing] say that's an Onion article.
David 11:16
Yeah it is. It's great.
Jordan 11:17
It's really good. [laughing] It's really good. Anyway...
David 11:19
[laughing] Let's get into talking about the characters. Rob, why don't you lead the charge and talk about the main character himself?
Rob 11:26
Jirou Azuma, who can talk to animals? so Jirou... I liked him.
Jordan 11:31
I did too.
David 11:31
Yeah.
Rob 11:32
I feel like just-just like his overall vibe, can talk to animals. Hey, I can dig. I-I like--
Jordan 11:37
Yeah.
Rob 11:37
--animals to just his determination to just want to keep on pushing forward to know help out whoever he can. And I just like him just overall.
Jordan 11:47
Yeah.
Rob 11:48
Nothing super spectacular and, like, super unique about him. But as far as, like, just, like, the pantheon of MCs or whatever, I've probably-have definitely seen worse. [David and Rob laugh]
Jordan 11:57
Oh, yeah. I think a common refrain we're gonna have in this episode is that, like umm, yeah, we've seen all this before, but it still does it well.
David 12:05
Yeah.
Jordan 12:05
Like David noted here that he, uh, reminds them of-of, uh, Ichigo from Bleach. I completely agree.
Rob 12:11
Mmhm.
Jordan 12:11
I think that there is a lot of overlap there, just his general vibe--
David 12:15
Mmhm.
Jordan 12:15
--where it's like umm, he's strong and, like, lackadaisical and kind of-but uh-or are-kind of, like, calm and lazy--
David 12:24
Yeah.
Jordan 12:24
--sort of, but like, at the same time, yo, man, he cares. Yeah, don't fuck with his friends, dude.
David 12:29
They also never explained that he can talk to animals. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 12:32
That is definitely [laughs] something that the author was going to explain in volume 10.
David 12:38
Yeah, I [Jordan and Rob laugh] assume he probably had, like, mononoke lineage or something.
Jordan 12:42
Yeah. There is a weird thing where it's like, yeah, my grandma is a dog. [Rob and Jordan laugh] Which I loved, but it was like, wait, what's going on? [David laughs]
David 12:52
Oh yeah, but there's a lot of characters. So let's try and go down the list and then we'll really get into it. So the next character is Ryousuke Shiba. He is the chief of the Bureau of Espionage. He's kind of, like, the dad. Literally, we drew him as a dad on the cover. He smokes. He doesn't do a lot. He just manages people, which I guess is good.
Jordan 13:09
He's the Kakashi slash Goto of this group, you know?
David 13:13
Yeah.
Rob 13:14
Mmhm.
Jordan 13:14
He kind of just, uhh...
David 13:16
Vibes.
Jordan 13:17
Yeah, he just kind of vibes but he's also very clearly actually in control, even though he seems like he doesn't give a shit.
David 13:23
Can I also say I'm really impressed he doesn't sexually assault his secretary because that is like a shonen trope.
Jordan 13:28
I'm very glad [laughing] that [indecipherable]
David 13:30
You--besides--
Rob 13:31
Mmhmm.
David 13:31
--the really upfront sexualization of the female characters, this series is not actually that sexist.
Rob 13:37
Yeah.
Jordan 13:38
He doesn't hate women. He just leers at them [laughing] a little, you know? [Rob laughs]
David 13:41
Yeah. And then speaking of, why don't we get into the first female main character so, Jordan, tell us--
Jordan 13:47
Well, we didn't-David, you-you're forgetting a character. [Rob laughs]
David 13:49
Sorry. You're right. Why don't we get into Mr. Catman Jones, Mr. Not Pasta Man. Ragu. [everyone laughs]
Jordan 13:58
Ragu. I love Rago. He's like a big powerful demon. But he's in the form of a cute little black cat.
David 14:05
Mmhm.
Jordan 14:05
It's great. He's kind of a dick, who just likes to be left alone. Like--
David 14:09
He's a cat.
Rob 14:09
Yeah.
Jordan 14:09
No! That's [Rob laughs] it. He's a cat. I even love how, umm, when he had his village he was protecting the way that he protected them was to just be lazy and hang out and wait for the humans to give him food. And--
David 14:10
Yeah.
Jordan 14:21
--just by being there he scared everyone away. Like, it's literally what a cat does.
Rob 14:25
Mmhmm.
David 14:26
That's a very accurate portrayal of a cat.
Jordan 14:28
Yeah, the author clearly has a cat. The author clearly loves cats. And, man, I feel like he just fucking knocked it out of the park [laughing] with this depiction of a cat, is what I'm saying.
David 14:39
[laughing] Exactly.
Rob 14:40
I definitely agree. And I also just love the little touch where a lot of times where he kind of spawned in, he would, like, be sitting on top of his head--
Jordan 14:47
[laughing] Yeah.
Rob 14:48
--on top of Jirou's head and stuff. So yeah, definitely very much fits the mold and full vibe. [laughs]
Jordan 14:54
Oh, yes. When you're just kind of like-you're just hanging out and you look over you're like, oh, I didn't realize the cat was in this room. Oh. Hey.
Rob 15:00
Yes. [Rob and Jordan laugh]
David 15:02
Yeah, I just don't understand the point of cat, like, people having a pet cat. Because everyone is like, oh, they're just like a dog and I'm like, oh, then why don't you just get a dog? [Rob laughs]
Jordan 15:10
You know what, David? To quote Audrey, a previous guest on the show, you just own a cat so you can have a weird, funny, little guy in your house that you can look at some times. [Rob laughs]
David 15:19
[Jordan laughs] I can't wait to get a dog.
Jordan 15:22
Oh, I know, David. David is, uh, definitely a dog guy even though he loves Gomez.
David 15:26
I do.
Jordan 15:26
Hmmm. How strange. I wonder what Gomez would say if he heard you talking about this right now?
David 15:30
I don't know. Probably nothing [Rob laughs] because he's a cat. And Gomez, despite expecting it, actually is a normal cat and he's incapable of talking.
Jordan 15:36
He would make a sad face.
David 15:38
He would. That's okay.
Jordan 15:39
You would feel bad. You would feel devastated.
David 15:41
Yup, but Rob, do you feel devastated talking about the first main female character? Ichika?
Rob 15:46
No! Overall, in general, I enjoy her.
Jordan 15:49
Yeah.
Rob 15:49
You know, li-li-like we kind of hinted at earlier. You know, definitely lots of-lots of leg, butt shots. [laughs]
Jordan 15:55
A lot of cheesecake. Yeah.
Rob 15:56
Kind of, uh, set the tone for, well, for sure with her. It was a lot [laughs] throughout the series--
Jordan 16:02
Yeah.
Rob 16:02
--versus like-like some of the other female characters but [laughs] butt aside...
Jordan 16:06
Hey!
David 16:07
Oh, oh, oh! [trumpet noises] Ass I was saying. You know?
Rob 16:12
I kind of liked how she pretty much didn't take any shit from when we first get introduced to her--
David 16:18
Yup.
Rob 16:19
--to her just be like, hey, no, hey, don't look down on me or don't think I'm weak or whatever, just 'cause--
Jordan 16:23
Yeah.
Rob 16:23
--I'm a girl. And so that's-thi-this is something that I liked about her is that she wasn't like some, you know, damsel in distress on the team type of person. So she was out there kind of doing her own thing, fight her own fights and stuff. So from that point of view, you know, solid female character, not the best but solid.
David 16:41
I can respect that.
Jordan 16:43
In the pantheon of, umm, female characters in shonen monga there is an extremely low bar.
Rob 16:51
Yes. [laughs]
Jordan 16:52
And she absolutely clears it [Rob laughs] like, yeah, I wouldn't say oh, she's the best ever. She's my favorite.
Rob 16:57
Mmhmmm.
Jordan 16:57
No, absolutely not. That goes to Power and the girl from Ji-Jujustu Kaisen.
David 17:03
Oh, yes--
Rob 17:03
Yeah.
David 17:03
--those are strong female characters that are not sexualized.
Rob 17:06
Mmhmm.
Jordan 17:07
Also, just-I like their characters [laughs] a lot is what I'm saying.
David 17:10
Well, that's 'cause Power's the president, the first president.
Jordan 17:12
Well, yeah, and we have to respect the first president.
David 17:15
Yeah.
Jordan 17:15
But also, umm, I did like the [laughing] moment where Ichika and, you know, the-the boss's secretary, I don't remember her name.
David 17:15
Mmhm.
Jordan 17:15
But we mentioned her. I like how they just have a brief conversation to talk about stuff. And I'm like, oh, wow, thanks to this one conversation this series passes the Bechdel test.
David 17:33
[laughing] That's true. [everyone laughs]
Jordan 17:36
But I do feel like the story kind of runs out of things for her to do.
Rob 17:42
Mmhmm.
David 17:42
He literally-he's like, you stay here, we're all gonna go on a mission. And she's like, okay.
Jordan 17:46
Yeah, exactly. [Rob and David laugh]
David 17:48
But I think we're starting to get into like, issues territory, so why don't-let's just try and go through the rest. So the next character, though, is the grandpa. Not much to say. He's just a badass. But he--
Rob 17:48
Yes.
David 17:57
--came back. He knows mononoke. Clearly, he would have done a lot more if the series hadn't met a premature end. But, you know. So it's cool to see the super awesome grandpa trope.
Jordan 18:06
I liked his interactions with Jirou. It was very interesting to see. He has to walk this fine line where he understands the danger that Jirou and that mononoke represent. But also Jirou is his grandson.
Rob 18:19
Mmhm.
David 18:19
Yeah.
Rob 18:19
Mmhm.
Jordan 18:20
You can see that there's, like, a conflict there. Like, there's one moment where it kind of zooms in on his face. You can kind of see that he's tearing up.
Rob 18:28
Yeah.
David 18:29
Yeah. And he's definitely friends with the grandpa from, uh, Neru. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 18:33
Friends, but he thinks it's kind of weird.
David 18:34
Yeah.
Jordan 18:35
You know? [Rob laughs]
David 18:35
Did you notice Neru has a piece of, like, the cov-the third volume art and it has like a lot of feet shots in it?
Jordan 18:40
I did not. But I'm not at all shocked to hear that, like not in the slightest. [Rob and Jordan laugh]
David 18:44
Jordan's like, I'm gonna go look at that after this.
Rob 18:46
Bookmark saying--
Jordan 18:47
You know me.
David 18:48
Alright, let's keep going. Jordan, you're next in line, right? Can you tell us about the other male main character?
Jordan 18:54
Yeah, so Reiji Kirahara.
David 18:56
Reiji Against the Machine.
Jordan 18:58
You read my mind, David. [David laughs] But no, I mean, look, we got in Jirou, we got the Naruto and in Ichika we got the Sakura, and now with Reiji we have the Sasuke. He's kind of the stoic guy who he's like-I mean, he's closer to that Quincy dude from Bleach whose name I totally blanking--
Rob 19:16
Uryu.
Jordan 19:16
--on. Uryu? Yeah, yeah--
Rob 19:17
Yeah.
Jordan 19:18
--that's him. Where it's like, he's this very, like, uh, quiet guy. And you could tell he's very traditional. He comes from a well-respected family like--
David 19:18
Mmhm.
Jordan 19:19
--Sasuke.
Rob 19:27
Mmhm.
Jordan 19:27
But like Sasuke, his brother killed his entire [laughing] family. And now he has to go kill his brother, but he doesn't do it because the series ends. [Rob laughs]
David 19:35
Whoopsie doodles.
Jordan 19:36
Oops. Yeah, you should have started that a little earlier.
David 19:39
Ehhh, it happens to the best of us, Jordan, you know?
Jordan 19:40
Yeah, yeah. Also he, uh, he flirts with all the women--
David 19:40
And he calls them all cute.
Jordan 19:45
Oh, yeah.
David 19:46
What an absolute player.
Jordan 19:47
Total [David laughs] player. [laughs]
David 19:51
And then, uhh, why don't we get into Kouga?
Jordan 19:54
Yeah.
David 19:54
He is very generic bad guy, wants to be the strongest mononoke. He joins the squad though because he's like, man Amagi, even by my standards, is real fucked up. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 20:03
What I liked about him is that, like, they mentioned that mononoke are, like, centuries old and [laughs] then Amagi just turns to him and he's like, you're just barely two decades old. So it's like, oh, so he's [Rob laughs] actually, like, the age that he looks unlike every other--
David 20:18
Yeah.
Jordan 20:18
--mononoke. Okay.
Rob 20:19
Mmhmm.
Jordan 20:20
I also like he's supposed to be, like, a foil to Jirou. Like--
David 20:23
Yeah.
Jordan 20:23
--they're supposed to be very similar in this-in a similar way to Bleach in, uh, Grimmjow, I think. Ichigo and Renji is what I think they're actually going for, kind of, where it's like--
David 20:30
Oh, that makes sense.
Jordan 20:31
Yeah, we can relate because we're both dumb guys who get really angry about stuff and-and fight but, like, we hate each other but do we really hate each other?
David 20:39
Yes, the answer is yes.
Jordan 20:40
I don't know. I think there's something there, David.
David 20:42
Ohhhoho. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 20:43
But yeah, he wants to also take Rago and make them fuse with himself but he-he ends up saving Rago from getting killed because he's like, that's just a little kitty. Let's not kill him. [Rob laughs]
David 20:55
Everybody kind of wanted to fuck Rago. [Rob laughs] A cat is fine too, Jordan.
Jordan 20:59
Okay... [Rob laughs] You know what, David? You can say that--
David 21:02
Okay.
Jordan 21:02
--on the podcast.
David 21:03
I can say that.
Jordan 21:03
You can say that.
David 21:04
I CAN say that. You know what else I can say? Is Rob, why don't you actually talk about Mr. Big Bad though?
Rob 21:10
I guess I can always, uh uh, appreciate, like, the kind of looming threat of a-I don't necessarily want to say, like, a well done [Jordan laughs] villain especially with-with the kind of, you know, what the series kind of being that short but...
Jordan 21:21
Yeah.
Rob 21:22
I just appreciate-just kind of like focal point for all the characters to kind of go towards because-because like y'all say, like, Kouga, you know, he's not that bad. Especially once, you know, Amagi gets brought into the picture but, I don't know, I-I just liked it when a series is kind of like, hey, you thought this was the Bad? The main Bad Guy? But no, this is the Bad Guy that unites all the different sides.
Jordan 21:41
Oh yeah.
Rob 21:41
Okay, you know what? That's the guy that's really messed up right there. [laughs]
Jordan 21:45
In the words of Zangief, uh, [in a bad Russian accent] just because you are a bad guy does not mean you are Bad Guy. [Rob laughs] And that's-that's kind of how Kouga is.
Rob 21:53
Yeah.
Jordan 21:53
Amagi is Bad Guy. He-he's a cannibal.
Rob 21:56
Yes.
Jordan 21:57
That's what they bring up [laughing] all the time. He's a fucking cannibal.
David 21:59
Yeah.
Rob 21:59
Yes.
Jordan 22:00
Kouga doesn't like him [laughing] because he views him as, um, going against, uh, his race basically.
David 22:06
And there's Fuyou who is the childlike mononoke who actually abides by the oh, I might look 14 but I'm actually 1000 years old bullshit. Has flower--
Rob 22:13
Yeah.
David 22:13
--power. [Rob laughs] I like her because she represents that mononoke are not blanket evil. So it was nice that they establish here is in it is possible to have positive relationships, which actually takes us to the other, I would say, protagonistic mononoke.
Jordan 22:26
Aw yeah.
David 22:27
So, Jordan--
Jordan 22:28
Aw yeah!
David 22:28
--why don't you finish up this section? Tell us about her.
Jordan 22:30
Ogre Lord Ibuki. So like, there's this forest and you can't go in the forest or else Ibuki''ll kill you. But of course, Jirou goes in the forest due to plot reasons. He fights against the-who he thinks is, uh, Ibuki, but it turns out that was her husband and what? Ibuki's a hot girl with big boobs? [David laughs] Oh, my [Rob laughs] God, can you even imagine?
David 22:56
Whoa!
Jordan 22:58
Ba-zoing-oing-oing-oing. [Rob laughs] But yeah, she's just kind of, um, a hot forest god.
Rob 23:04
Mmhm.
Jordan 23:04
Her husband is a human who fell in love with her. And she turned him into a mononoke. They sent Jirou there so that Jirou could meet a fellow mononoke-human hybrid to see oh, okay. It's not so bad. I could always wind up with a hot girl-with a hot wife with huge boobs. [Rob and David laugh]
David 23:23
That's good to know.
Jordan 23:24
And you know what? I agree, good for [laughing] you, Jirou. [Rob laughs]
David 23:27
I don't know how to respond to that. So, uh, why it failed. All right. Let's go to that section. Jordan. [laughs]
Jordan 23:35
The big issue with this is just that, like, it's extremely tropey. It does things well, but it does things in a way that we've seen before.
Rob 23:43
Mmhm.
Jordan 23:44
Also, I would say, like, it seems like things kind of move too fast at the beginning, you know? Like, umm--
David 23:49
Yeah.
Jordan 23:49
I feel like the status quo kind of changes too much. Like, we didn't even get used to, um, Jirou and Rago before Rago was just, like, kind of ripped away.
Rob 23:58
Yeah.
Jordan 23:58
It happens very quickly. I'm kind of surprised that the series was cancelled. Because when that ha-like, that stuff happens so fast that it-it almost seems like endgame stuff.
Rob 24:09
Mmhm.
David 24:09
I feel like the series had some very serious pacing issues, and that it was monthly and I don't think this mangaka was very good at writing a monthly series because he had about a week's worth of ideas. Like, if each chapter was 20 pages, I think he would have literally been in the same spot plot wise. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 24:27
[laughs] That might be the case. [laughing] I don't know. Another issue with it is, I mean, there-there is over sexualization of--
David 24:34
Yeah.
Jordan 24:34
--the characters. If you know-like, you can't really dance around that. Like we-uh, we mentioned Fuyou, uh, a demon who looks like a young girl. I was a little weirded out by how he was drawing her legs. I'm not gonna lie.
David 24:46
Yeah.
Rob 24:47
Mmhm.
Jordan 24:48
Again, I've seen way, way worse, but it's still there. So...
Rob 24:52
Yeah.
David 24:53
What do you think, Rob? Is there anything that really stood out to you as a negative?
Rob 24:56
Umm...
David 24:56
Probably this series was flawless. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 25:00
[laughs].
David 25:00
[trying to imitate Rob] I'ma go tuck my kids in. [Rob laughs] Tell me when it's the positive [Jordan laughs] section.
Rob 25:04
Definitely not. I definitely agree that yes, stuff was kind of just, like, zipping around toward-it-it definitely was kind of like, this chapter we're going to kind of cover this plot point. That seems kind of interesting. And then alright, next chapter. Alright, we're moved on to the-to something else that's going on. And it's like, whoa, ho-hold on, like...
Jordan 25:22
Yeah.
Rob 25:22
I don't necessarily want to say like, slow down, maybe like, expand upon some of the stuff that's going on, you know, some of-some of the, you know--
Jordan 25:30
Yeah.
Rob 25:30
--characters that-that y'all are running into or just different ideas, because it's, like y'all above said, it's like there is some solid nuggets sprinkled throughout this thing, but it's just, like, every time it was like, oh, okay, okay, look something interesting to maybe grasp onto. It's like you're ripped away, or maybe like, ah, let's not talk about that anymore. It's like, I was kind of interested in maybe finding out more about that thing. But all right, I guess we're--
David 25:53
Mmhm.
Rob 25:53
--you know, going over here to fight this other thing, or whatever. So, yeah.
Jordan 25:58
Wait, I want to see Kouga talking to the weird sleepy witch, you know? I wanna-I wanna understand their relationship more.
Rob 25:58
Mmhm.
Jordan 26:06
Or even just the fact where it's, like, one chapter previously, we have a moment where characters kind of go into their memories, which, uh, was kind of a transparent way to just build up, uh, their backstory and stuff. And--
David 26:18
Yeah, [laughing] that was just very convenient writing.
Jordan 26:20
Very transparent. And, uh, Reiji has this dream or his-his battle is with his, uh, brother who killed his family and stuff like that.
Rob 26:29
Mmhm.
Jordan 26:30
And then, like, the next chapter, he's already fighting his brother in [Rob laughs] real life. That was quick.
David 26:34
At least it wasn't an exam arc. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 26:36
I will say I actually wound up appreciating it because they expanded on it. And we got Shinji, his brother's, uh, perspective--
Rob 26:44
Mmhmm.
Jordan 26:44
--as he was forced to get into the robot. [David and Rob laugh] I thought it was actually pretty well done. But at first-but for a little while, I was like,okay, that's very fast. You can't think of anything else for him to do.
David 26:54
Oh you.
Rob 26:55
Yeah. [Jordan laughs]
David 26:56
The biggest issue I have with this series, as I talked about in the character section, there is actually no overarching plot. None of these events really matter because they're not building to anything.
Jordan 27:05
Yeah.
Rob 27:06
Yeah.
David 27:06
What was the author intending to happen if this series ran for another 50 chapters?
Rob 27:11
Yeah.
Jordan 27:11
I sort of disagree. There wasn't, like, a main overarcing building thing. But there were a lot of threads that were laid out that--
Rob 27:18
Mmhm.
Jordan 27:18
--could have circled back if you had more time. Like, I mean, we mentioned here about things that just don't get resolved. I mean, Reiji's brother. [Rob laughs] I guess Reiji's brother's just somewhere still, and then Amagi's, like, before he dies he's like, oh, you know, there's way stronger dudes out there that you're gonna have to fight, I guess. [Rob laughs] Like, I know he has to do that for the shonen thing, but it is kind of like, is there a dude stronger than you?
Rob 27:19
Yeah.
Jordan 27:25
'Cuz you kind of thought you were gonna take over the whole world.
David 27:42
Yeah. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 27:43
[laughing] Like, did you think they were like way tougher dudes out there that you had to beat down? I don't know. [still laughing] That would have been kind of cool.
Rob 27:49
Somebody to conquer the universe.
Jordan 27:51
[David and Jordan simultaneously] Yeah. [David laughs]
It could have gone full Gurren Lagann [Rob laughs] with the end.
David 27:54
That's true. It's just-he just keeps piloting larger and larger cats.
Jordan 27:54
[laughing] Yeah. [Rob laughs]
David 27:56
He works his way up to, like, a fucking Tiger.
Jordan 28:01
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
David 28:03
I also want to point out that sometimes the art, he actually kind of didn't finish the art. It's not terrible. But he really stopped at the late stage drawing, and he didn't actually ink some of the art.
Rob 28:15
Mmhmm. Mmhm.
Jordan 28:15
Yeah.
David 28:15
I just thought that got really apparent in the last, like, two or three chapters where I guess he just didn't care.
Jordan 28:19
I don't know if, uh, doesn't care is necessarily, like, the right kind of thing. I mean, he was probably, like, rushing a lot, be--
David 28:27
Yeah.
Rob 28:27
Mmhm. Mmhm.
Jordan 28:27
--cause, you know, he knew he was-he was coming to an end. And, you know, I mean, those end chapters, they're a little bit sketchy, but they do look incredible in a lot of places, you know?
Rob 28:32
Mmhm.
David 28:38
Oh, the art is always good. It was just he didn't finish inking it.
Jordan 28:41
Yeah.
David 28:42
And then though, most of these are for the most part, nitpicks, and ultimately--
Jordan 28:45
Yeah
David 28:45
--don't detract from the fun of it. So why don't we go into what it did well? And Rob, our wonderful guest, can tell us, really, why he didn't have much to say about the negative side. [Rob laughs]
Rob 28:57
This is just, like-like, one of the first things that kind of jumped out to me that the series does well, the female character designs, you know. E-even though, you know, we talked about, like-like, the problems, you know, with the, you know, over sexual-sexualization of some characters, but their designs in general-every time a new female character came up, I was like, oh, okay. Either she looks pretty, or just like her design, you know, just looks cool.
Jordan 29:20
Yeah.
Rob 29:20
Especially at Shonen Jump to whereas, like okay, sometimes we know getting female characters, in general, [laughs] is sometimes, you know, reaching for the stars.
Jordan 29:29
Oh, yeah.
Rob 29:30
But I feel like this series had a good handful, I would say, uh, female characters where I was like-I was like, you know what? I'm interested to find out more about her, where her design is--
David 29:39
Mmhm.
Rob 29:40
--because one of them that kind of stuck out to me or one that I just constantly think about is the, uh, First Division Leader...
Jordan 29:47
That cool scar over her eye?
Rob 29:49
Yeah.
Jordan 29:49
Yeah. Also, David, you're wrong. There are two characters with huge boobs.
David 29:53
I was just looking at her scar the whole time.
Jordan 29:55
[Jordan and Rob laugh] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Rob 29:58
Hey, my scar is up here.
Jordan 29:59
Yeah. [Jordan and David laugh]
David 30:01
Oh geez. [Rob laughs] The semi implications. [Rob and David laugh]
Rob 30:05
The fights in general, I-I-I feel like, you know, in some ways it kind of reminded me of how some of the fight scenes looked in, like, Jujitsu Kaisen.
Jordan 30:15
This series reminds me so much [laughing] of Jujitsu Kaisen.
Rob 30:19
Yeah.
Jordan 30:19
We do have to point out is, uh, this series predates Jujitsu Kaisen.
David 30:23
It predates Chainsaw Man.
Jordan 30:24
Predates Chainsaw Man, predates a lot. So this is, like, really interesting to see.
David 30:29
Yeah.
Rob 30:30
But that same comparison of like, okay, sometimes it's hard to tell what's really going on in some of these fights. Oh, that the finishing blows or the finishing slices with a sword or whatever look really cool.
Jordan 30:41
Yeah, my thing with this is that, like, um, the art is just-it doesn't just feel, like, good. It feels so professional. Like, it feels like so legitimate. I feel like I'm Gordon Ramsay and that, like, [Rob laughs] uh, that meme going around where it's like, finally some good fucking manga. [Rob laughs]
David 30:57
Oh, are you saying that Philosophy School wasn't great?
Jordan 31:00
Ah, that's definitely not what I'm saying. That's an amazing series but other than that, [Rob laughs] just like the-the thought that went into it, into every composition, you know, every placement of characters it-it was just like, this guy understands how to visually tell a story in manga in a way that you really just don't see in most of-definitely most of the things we cover on this show I could tell you that.
Rob 31:21
Mmhm.
Jordan 31:22
If this was so easy to read, these chapters are double length. So, in some way this was a situation similar to B. Ichi but, oh my god, is this easier to read than B- than B. Ichi. This is so much more enjoyable. Oh my god!
David 31:34
After I read the first chapter, I wasn't even mad that these are double-length chapters because--
Jordan 31:37
No.
David 31:37
--yeah, it was a lot of fun to read it. And I also appreciate it wasn't too text heavy. He really knew that the art sold the series and he really let it breathe. And he knew people wanted really cool fight scenes. And that's what he delivered.
Rob 31:47
Yeah.
Jordan 31:48
The way that his fight scenes go, and they're interesting. I don't-I don't know if I've seen this in a lot of manga but it's like, they'll have the characters fight and it'll be from the same angle from multiple panels, but--
Rob 31:59
Mmhmm.
Jordan 31:59
--the characters will move so you can get, like, a very good idea about what exactly is happening right now in this fight scene. And I think it goes a long way towards, like, making them feel more cinematic. The series feels, like, cinematically you could absolutely adapt this into an OVA, like, a good OVA, like, no problem.
Rob 32:02
Uh huh.
David 32:05
Oh, yeah. Just have [indecipherable] [Rob laughs]
Jordan 32:20
Well, yeah. [David laughs]
David 32:21
And I appreciate though, that the series actually introduces the characters at somewhat a reasonable pace, where you never really meet more than maybe one or two characters in a chapter.
Rob 32:30
Yeah.
David 32:30
The good mononoke doesn't show for a while, the team, the introductions get split. So it's not like you meet--
Rob 32:34
Mmhmm.
David 32:34
--six characters in the second chapter--
Rob 32:36
Yeah.
Jordan 32:36
Yeah.
David 32:36
--and stuff like that. So that really helped keep track. While we talked about a lot of characters, he did a good job of making you feel like these characters actually mattered.
Rob 32:36
Yes.
Jordan 32:38
I didn't even feel like there were that many characters. Of the way that it's focused, you're never focusing on, like, all of them at the exact same time.
David 32:51
Mmhm.
Rob 32:51
Yeah.
Jordan 32:51
You have, like, um, periods of time in between them. For all the things that we mentioned about pacing there are some aspects of pacing that this guy's really good at. Like, I remember in the-the second chapter, I was like, okay, this is a little too much text. Uh, there's a little too much talking. I'm starting to get a little bored. Boom, fight scene.
David 33:09
Also, this series is funny.
Jordan 33:10
Yes.
Rob 33:11
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
David 33:11
We haven't even talked about that at all. I legitimately consider this series a comedy.
Jordan 33:14
Yeah. It makes a lot of jokes with the humor. I agree.
David 33:17
Because also the tone of the series. isn't that serious most of the time, so the humor doesn't feel out of place, which is nice.
Rob 33:23
Mmhm. Mmhm.
Jordan 33:25
It's a lot like, uh, what JJK and CSM do, you know? Like, horrible things happen, I mean, you have mononoke ripping human heads off and leaving piles of, uh, decapitated [Rob laughs] heads, like, around Tokyo to just terrify humans.
David 33:39
Yeah.
Jordan 33:39
But then you have like a funny scene where Jirou's really angry at a cat, you know?
David 33:44
Yeah.
Jordan 33:44
And he's, like, threatening that he's gonna eat a snake. It's very much like, uh, comic relief. You know, you-you contrast. You're like, okay, that was kind of heavy, you know? Let's take a break here. Let's just hang out and laugh a bit before I, you know, kill a ton more people, you know? [Rob laughs]
David 33:59
Though, I would say that Chainsaw Man's humor is more in the bewilderment of placement in it. It-it's not like he has horror time-comedy time. It's horror time-comedy-horror time--
Jordan 34:08
Yeah.
David 34:08
--like the Kobeni burger scene was still completely horrific. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 34:09
I agree.
David 34:09
But it was just funny compared to what had just happened rather than this series just has MCU-style jokes in it.
Jordan 34:17
There's, like, a manic energy to Chainsaw Man and Fujimoto in general, which is just very difficult to replicate. You know?
Rob 34:18
Mmhm.
Jordan 34:19
He uses a decapitated mascot head as the punchline to a joke.
Yeah. [Rob laughs]
David 34:30
[laughing] Which this series just [Rob laughs] never ever gets close to that. [Jordan laughs] But anyway, now that we're talking about, ummm...
Jordan 34:37
[laughing] Now that we're talking about Chainsaw Man again.
David 34:40
[laughing] Why don't we get into where it could have gone?
Jordan 34:44
Okay.
David 34:45
I'll lead this one and say, uhh, this is kind of the bread and butter blah, blah, blah. I really would have liked to have seen a larger world. Clearly, humans and mononoke have a good relationship, which is great, but you don't see a lot of it and there's really only one mononoke that's clearly working with the humans and it seems like they're working have been a lot more based on this.
Jordan 35:01
Yeah. And also, we brought it up earlier, but why can he talk to animals? We got to know this and this-this absolutely would have been, uh, expanded upon if the series kept going, you know? Like, he mentions that, uh, his grandpa had a dog and he could-since he could talk to animals, he talked to the dog and the dog was like a grandmother to him. I was kind of thinking is, like, the dog actually his grandmother? [Rob and Jordan laugh] They show, like, they show, like, umm, a flashback to his grandpa's time in the service and he has that dog. His dog--
Rob 35:31
Mmhm.
David 35:31
Yeah
Jordan 35:32
--is there and the dog--
Rob 35:33
Mmhm.
Jordan 35:33
--is wearing armor. So...
David 35:34
Who knows?
Jordan 35:35
It raises a lot of questions that the series ended before it could answer.
David 35:38
Yeah.
Rob 35:39
One thing I want to ask real quick, because-'cause I-I just want to make sure in-in my haze of [laughs]--
Jordan 35:39
[laughing] Yeah.
Rob 35:42
--reading and stuff, whatever. Earlier in the series there was somebody, er, who was it? I kind of, basically, when he and kind of-one of the Big Bads, there was a mention of, oh, he is so and so talking about, uh, Jirou. Oh, he is-no-no wonder he's so strong. He's so and so's son.
Jordan 35:59
Yeah!
Rob 36:00
Did-did they--
Jordan 36:01
No, they never got there.
Rob 36:02
Okay, when I was reading through it, or whatever, I was like, okay, that's, like, stuff I like to kind of tease of maybe his dad was an animal or something. [laughs] Who knows? [Jordan laughs] Maybe that would have been our answer to hey, why can this kid talk to animals? Because of the dad or something.
Jordan 36:17
Both of his parents are dogs actually. [Rob laughs] It's, uh, it's a weird thing. Yeah.
David 36:21
You're the man now, dog. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 36:23
You're the dog now, [laughs] man.
David 36:25
[laughing] Speaking of, this series should have been sponsored by Men's Warehouse. [Jordan laughs] Cuz of all the [Rob laughs] jackets that got destroyed in it.
[laughing] Some nice jackets, too.
Actually, that would have been great as like a Braver moment because the series also didn't do a lot-that they did it, like, once where he goes [laughing] jacket shopping. He goes to, like, Kohl's because he has to buy jackets in bulk because he keeps destroying them when he does a cicada move. And then my last idea, by the way, is, uh, I think it would have been cool if they'd played out more of, like, these are, like, former gods that lost, like, their community and, like, been like, kinda like, American Gods, where the gods are, like, they're mononoke.
Jordan 36:56
Or like Shin Megami Tensei. Like, I was sort of getting that vibe too where it's like, are these all based on, like, real, like, mononoke? Like, real, uh, forest spirits that people worshiped back then? Like, I don't know if they were. I don't think they were. I mean, it's also possible that there is, like, a lot of Japanese mythological lore that I'm just missing here.
David 37:14
Maybe. I honestly have no idea.
Jordan 37:16
I don't know. [laughs]
David 37:17
And then, do you guys have any other ideas where it should have gone? Or should we just turn this into a Men's Warehouse and see if they'll sponsor us?
Jordan 37:23
Yeah, let's [Rob laughs] do that. Uhh, unfortunately, I think he's dead.
David 37:23
Awww, I-I thought he just got fired.
Jordan 37:28
George Zimmer? No, he's dead.
David 37:30
Oh. Rest in peace.
Jordan 37:31
R.I.P.
David 37:32
But I'm sure he would have had a lot of miscellaneous thoughts. Rob, take us away, though. What is really kind of some thoughts you had that didn't really fit into the rest of the discussion in the episode, but you still want to talk about?
Rob 37:42
Why do authors enjoy punching holes through their characters? [laughs]
Jordan 37:47
Oh, you mean turning them into doughnuts. Yeah.
Rob 37:50
Yes.
David 37:50
Yeah, just like Ace. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 37:52
Just like every other chapter of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. Yes. [laughs]
Rob 37:57
Because when-when we were talking about the Ichigo comparison, I'm like, the moment where he got punched through his chest, hey, just change his hair to orange. And there you go.
Jordan 38:06
Oh yeah. [Rob laughs] There's a few moments in Bleach where that happens, I'm pretty sure. [Rob laughs] Specifically with Ichi-with Ichigo, too. I think it's just, like, a really easy, uh, visual signifier that yo this guy's fucked up. [Rob laughs]
Rob 38:20
Yes, exactly.
David 38:21
He ain't gonna be in Black Torch 2, if you know what I mean. [Rob laughs]
Jordan 38:23
Yeah, except that it's happened so much in anime that whenever I see that, I'm like, oh, that guy's not dead.
Rob 38:28
Yeah. [Jordan laughs]
David 38:29
Yeah.
Jordan 38:29
[laughing] It doesn't work anymore, you know? Like...
Rob 38:32
Speaking of that, uh, that Jujutsu Kaisen comparison.
Jordan 38:35
Oh, yeah. I do also got to say like, um, the more I think about it, the more does remind me of Gurren Lagann in weird ways?
David 38:43
[laughs] Right? [Rob laughs]
Jordan 38:43
Like, first of all, Ichigo looks a lot like Yoko.
David 38:46
Yeah.
Rob 38:47
Oh, yeah.
Jordan 38:48
Like, especially with that ending fight. Like, they fuse back together again. And then, oh Rago gets giant! But, oh man! Amagi gets giant and then Jirou gets punched into Amagi--
David 39:00
Yeah.
Jordan 39:01
--and punches him in the face and I'm like, oh shit, this is how Gurren Lagann ended! [Rob laughs]
David 39:04
Right?
Jordan 39:05
Awesome in Gurren Lagann, it was awesome here too. Okay?
Rob 39:08
Mmhmm.
David 39:08
Fuck, let's rewatch Gurren Lagann--
Jordan 39:09
Let's watch-do it!
David 39:09
--after this. [Rob laughs] Fuck!
Jordan 39:11
I'm so pumped up by Gurren Lagann! Just thinking about it!
David 39:13
Fuuuuuck!
Jordan 39:13
[growly noise]
David 39:15
[growly noise]
Jordan 39:15
Spiral energy.
David 39:16
Yes. Also the-the-I still think this series is set in the Lethal Weapon universe where it's just-everything is so, like, winking at the camera cheesy. [Jordan laughs] I just-I can't explain it further. It just-it-it just is.
Rob 39:27
Mmhmm. [Jordan laughs]
David 39:27
Where you know, we're like, when a character would say I'm getting too old for this shit without any sense of irony.
Jordan 39:33
Yeah, yeah.
David 39:33
I was like that's the energy Lethal Weapon had that this series also has.
Jordan 39:37
Yeah, I-I al-I also feel like, um, anime in general tends to be about as cheesy as Lethal Weapon is. I was alright with it. Yeah. [laughs]
David 39:47
[laughing] So that's all my miscellaneous thoughts. You guys have anything else?
Rob 39:50
I guess as I'm sitting up here, just staring at just the image of, uh, Rago, it made me think of with the series may have been an improvement if more characters had animal companions.
Jordan 40:02
Mmmm.
Rob 40:02
That they maybe, like, fused with that stuff. It was like, oh, Reiji fuses with a duck or Ichika fuses [Jordan aughs] with a spider. I don't know. [laughs]
Jordan 40:13
I thought you just called Reiji, Randy.
Rob 40:15
Oh. [laughs]
David 40:16
Raaaaaaanndy. [Jordan and Rob laughing]
Jordan 40:19
What if all the mononoke were just, like, mundane animals that you run into, you know, like, uh...
Rob 40:25
A turtle? [laughs]
Jordan 40:26
Well yeah. Like, what if one dude's just, like, a little turtle and then he turns into a big-a big turtle? You know?
David 40:32
[laughing] Some big turt.
Jordan 40:33
Big turt. Yeah. [Jordan and David laugh]
David 40:37
All right, [laughing] shall we go to final verdict?
Jordan 40:39
[laughing] Yes.
David 40:39
'Cause it sounds like... [Rob laughs] So let me read off some six word summaries and then, Jordan, I know you'll get first dibs on reading off yours and telling us what you thought. So--
Jordan 40:48
Mmhm.
David 40:48
--from T Root starring Dr. Denji Doolittle the ninja. [Jordan laughs] This is similar to what mine's gonna be. GenericMan said women drawn like a different series. Accurate.
Jordan 40:56
Mmm, yeah.
David 40:57
OzyRat, who's listening right now. Hi, OzyRat. Watered down Chainsaw Man with cats. [Jordan laughs] dragoniitti, a void in my void, gimme.
Jordan 41:03
Hmm.
David 41:04
I think that made more sense in Finnish. [Jordan laughs] TWolfwood [laughs] they say it's good, we'll see. TWolfwood, was it good?
Jordan 41:11
Thanks TWolfwood, that was a really descriptive three [laughing] word-six word summary. [Rob and David laugh] Thank you. [everyone laughs]
David 41:17
And then Tucker said, sketchy art in a good way. [laughs] So the-how about you, Jordan? What was your six word?
Jordan 41:22
The Kamina to JuJutsu Kaisen's Simon.
David 41:25
[laughing] 'Bout you, Rob?
Rob 41:27
Sexy ladies. Cool clothes. Big punch.
David 41:30
I like it.
Jordan 41:31
Oh, yeah, that is-that is a big punch.
David 41:33
I had two where one was very [laughing] similar to TRoot's where I said [Jordan laughs] mission: spy mononoke x Chainsaw family with the [Rob laughs] silent X.
Jordan 41:41
Exactly. Yeah. [laughs] Where's the-oh, I guess because it's spy family. I was like, where does High School Family fit in to this? [Rob and Jordan laugh]
David 41:47
Yeah, no, it's Spy Family.
Jordan 41:49
[laughing] I'm just imagining chainsaw family now.
David 41:52
[Rob laughs] Ah, that would have been cool actually. We could've had Gomez and Puchita hanging out with the cat-- [Rob laughs]
Jordan 41:57
[laughing] Yes.
David 41:57
--as cover art. It's alright, we still did the Wild Thornberrys was good too.
Jordan 42:00
Yeah.
David 42:00
And then my actual one just because I thought that was a little too similar to what TRoot wrote. Mine was what if Bokke-san was actually good.
Jordan 42:07
It is so difficult for me to imagine Bokke-san being good that I don't know if I agree with that. That's like--
David 42:12
You don't have to because that's what this series is. That was about a cat yokai as well, possessing a person.
Jordan 42:18
If you asked me what Bokke-san was about, I have to spend, like, 20 minutes just digging through that mess.
David 42:24
It was a civil war allegory remember? And had eugenics [Jordan laughs] and eugenics is a [laughing] large plot element for some reason.
Jordan 42:31
You know what? Don't read [laughing] Bokke-san. Listener, don't read that. It's bad.
David 42:35
And the guy makes porn now.
Jordan 42:36
Yeah, the guy makes porn!
David 42:39
Alright, [laughing] so though, Jordan. Uhhh, was this a flop or not? I think we're all in agreement this was not but just in case...
Jordan 42:47
Not a flop. No. This is one of those series. It doesn't happen a lot. But I'm genuinely shocked. It got canceled.
Rob 42:54
Mmhmm.
David 42:54
I agree. Rob, how about you?
Rob 42:56
I agree. I also didn't think it was a flop. This is definitely one to where when I started reading it, it got my attention pretty much with that first chapter. And it's definitely one that I wish could have gotten to go a full length however long that might have been.
Jordan 43:11
Yeah.
Rob 43:12
As you talked about, there's so many ideas and stuff sprinkled throughout to where it's like, man, if only it would have gotten maybe more time or organization, whatever, that this might have been a potentially really great series.
Jordan 43:26
Yeah. This author, you know, a lot of the times we're like, uh, next time he'll just knock it out of the park. No, this guy's here.
Rob 43:33
Mmhmm.
Jordan 43:33
He is at that high level of manga production. This is the level of quality that you would see in, like, high tier Shonen Jump [laughing] good series.
David 43:44
I guess that brings up the question, Jordan, is this better than Chainsaw Man?
Jordan 43:48
It's not better than Chainsaw Man, no.
David 43:50
So, Jordan, though, I guess then we have a contender for best series we've ever read. So I'm still at Time Paradox. But I think you've actually changed your opinion.
Jordan 43:57
I think I'm still with Hard-Boiled Cop and Dolphin. I think that that still edges this out. But this is-this is close.
David 44:04
Yeah. This is just a good series. Yeah.
Jordan 44:06
It's just a very--
Rob 44:07
Mmhm.
Jordan 44:08
--well done series. Like, uh, again, I'm really surprised this got canceled. I'm not sure why. Like, you know, we brought up some pacing issues, but there's so much manga out there that's popular with pacing issues.
Rob 44:19
Mmhmm.
Jordan 44:19
Dragonball Z's pacing issues are so much goddamn worse than this. And what this gets right is what so many other things just can't do.
David 44:29
Yeah.
Rob 44:29
Yeah.
David 44:30
I honestly think if this was a weekly series, it would still be running.
Rob 44:33
Yeah.
Jordan 44:33
Yeah, that's the thing. It was running in Shonen Jump Square?
David 44:36
So it was monthly.
Jordan 44:37
And yeah, maybe it has to do with, like, the additional length. Maybe people just like the 20 chapter a week kind of model and throwing it 40 chapters monthly kind of screwed that up? I don't know.
David 44:48
I don't know. But it's just how it is. You guys ready, though, to go to shout-outs?
Jordan 44:52
On that somber note? Yeah.
Rob 44:53
Mmhm.
David 44:54
Props to Jordan for making the opening/ending theme, being a great co-host and helping with editing.
Jordan 44:57
You're welcome.
David 44:58
Props to Mer Liel for awesome cover art. You can find her online @liel_mer and Nigel for being our generous art benefactor. Thanks to Tucker for assistance with pronunciation, translation, other miscellaneous research. We have a new person to thank this episode, don't we, Jordan?
Jordan 45:09
Yes, we do.
David 45:10
Through the combined power of our patrons, we were able to hire some additional editing help. So a big thanks to Dylan from Anime Out of Context for joining us on our podcasting journey. You can find his podcast at animeoutofcontext.com.
Jordan 45:22
Welcome to the Flop team, Dylan.
David 45:24
I also want to give thanks to Luke for being our community producer and thank you to T Root, OzyRat, and TWolfwood. TWolfwood who is listening right now for being our awesome transcription volunteers. We're still working hard on the new site, but it and the transcripts will be available soon.
Jordan 45:37
Oh, yes.
David 45:38
And then how about you, Jordan?
Jordan 45:39
David, I would like to thank you so much for editing not this episode!
David 45:44
But I still am. It-just Dylan's doing, like, the first, like, pass.
Jordan 45:47
Oh, well, then thank you, David, for editing this episode.
David 45:50
We're not making that [laughing] much [Jordan laughing] from patrons that we [Rob laughing] don't have to edit it anymore.
Jordan 45:53
[laughing] Yeah.
David 45:54
[laughing] And you can find us on Twitter--
Jordan 45:57
Unless, however, listener, if you would like to contribute then maybe soon. We will.
David 46:02
Yeah, I'm still excited for that $2,000 we'll make an anime opening goal.
Jordan 46:05
Yeah, yeah. [David laughs] We're gon-we're gonna get there. We'll get it.
David 46:08
[laughing] Yup. And, uh, you can find us on Twitter @shonenflopcast and our website shonenflop.com. We're also on Spotify, iTunes, YouTube, or wherever else you get your podcast. And Spotify now has podcast reviews. If you've been enjoying the show, we'd appreciate it if you took 30 seconds to give us five stars! If you already have, you're the best and I love you very much. And you're definitely invited to my dog's birthday party. And be sure to join the Shonen Flop discord. Come hang out with us and talk about anime, games, or whatever else is on your mind. We have a book club and do regular movie nights. We actually-our most recent one, uh, it's already passed. We read Weeaboo and actually had the creator of the series in our book club. That was super rad, but it's not too late to join us when we watch The Thing. So [Jordan laughs] that will be a really fun movie night.
Jordan 46:44
Oh, yeah. We are watching John Carpenter's The Thing. For a second--
David 46:47
Yes.
Jordan 46:47
I was [Rob laughs] like, yeah, we're gonna watch the thing. And I'm like, which thing?
David 46:50
Yes, that thing.
Jordan 46:51
That [David laughs] thing, I see. I see that thing.
David 46:54
You can find a link to it in our show notes. And if you've been enjoying the podcast and wanna help us keep going consider subscribing to our Patreon. We have a ton of awesome perks ranging from exclusive mini episodes, deleted scenes, and you can even help us pick what series we're going to cover next. Find it at patreon.com/shonenflop. I also want to give a shout out to some of our patrons. First of all, I want to give a shout out to our Chainsaw Man patrons. This episode was actually brought to you by Pterodactyl Ghost who used their awesome power as a patron for us to cover this series.
Jordan 47:20
Thank you so much, Pterodactyl Ghost. This was a good series to read. Thank you.
David 47:25
Yes. And then I want to give a shout to our King of the Forest Albie, Gabe Landau, Is Your Name Winter Because I'll Be Coming Soon.
Jordan 47:31
Hey!
David 47:32
Mark, Matt Sivulich, Marty, OverratedApples, ScarletMyrmidon, t our latest patron amd newest King of the Forest. I guess I was [indecipherable] on THEBBKINGBBTHE. Got it in one take. Oh, and that's the last one. Sorry, [censored]. Your name will be stricken from the record because [Jordan laughs] you're not a King of the Forest and only us and Dylan will ever know that I made that mistake.
Jordan 47:50
Get fucked! [laughing]
David 47:52
Actually, Dylan, just censor his name. [laughs] Uhh, okay, those people are absolutely fantastic. But if you're not ready for a regular commitment, consider buying some merch.We have a ton of awesome designs including the much requested Gomez Moon and Mashle Punching Harry Potter shirts along with the cover art for this episode and a portion of the proceeds go back to the original artists to boot. But enough about us. Rob has been sitting here very patient unless he went off to tuck his kids in, like we talked about. Probably it was a good time for that. Rob, [Jordan laughs] if you're still with [laughing] us, please tell the audience all about all those amazing things that you do.
Rob 48:23
Yes, yeah, I am still here. The-the kids have not invaded my recording space yet, but they're probably knocking at the door. [Jordan and David laugh] You can find me everywhere @dadneedstotalk. So you can go to so dadneedstotalk.com. That is the central hub for everything that I do. So you can find my podcast on all streaming services wherever podcasts can be found. You can also find my youtube channel, same name, Dad Needs to Talk. Go there. Subscribe. Follow me. All that good stuff. If you want to hear about the wacky adventures I go on with my kids. What crazy manga I've come across, anime I'm watching or video games I'm playing. So if any of that sounds good, check me out @DadNeedsToTalk.
David 49:02
I know I'm gonna be checking that out.
Jordan 49:03
Oh, yeah. [outro music begins]
David 49:04
Thank you so much for joining us. This has been David.
Jordan 49:07
This has been Jordan.
Rob 49:08
And this has been Rob.
David 49:08
And you've been listening to Shonen Flop.
Jordan 49:10
Keep on flopping, flops.
David 49:12
Yeah.
Jordan 49:12
Yeah!
Rob 49:13
Yeah.
Jordan 49:14
Bye!
David 49:14
Bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai