#54 The Last Saiyuki (Ft. Eric from Chris and Eric’s Longbox Adventure)

[Transcript by T Root] 

Jordan  0:00  
[Shonen Flop Theme Song]

David  0:12  
Welcome to this episode of Shonen Flop, where we talk about manga series in Shonen Jump that didn't make a big. I'm David

Jordan  0:17  
I'm Jordan. 

David  0:18  
And this week, we're talking about The Last Saiyuki, and we're joined by our guest today, Eric. 

Jordan  0:22  
Yeah! 

David  0:24  
Eric, thank you so much for joining us today. Do you mind telling the audience a little bit about yourself?

Eric  0:27  
Thank you all for having me, again. I am a general comic book nerd and podcaster. 

Jordan  0:33  
Same. 

Eric  0:34  
My personal penance for myself is that every week I read everything in Shonen Jump, and-

David  0:40  
Oh jeez... 

Eric  0:41  
I think you all have learned just how painful that can be. So I'm excited to talk to people who have experienced the same torments that I have.

Jordan  0:51  
Why do you do that to yourself, man?

David  0:53  
A guy in our Discord- He doesn't post. He posts in a different Discord where he actually give star ratings. So I'd be curious if you ever thought about doing that. Where you actually rank every chapter, since you read everything in Shonen Jump. Eric, though, I also want to make a note that we actually are having you on the show, because you actually filled out a form we have on our site, where if people listening are interested being a guest, I'll include it in the show notes as well. Where we are always looking for guests. So we have a form you can fill out just saying, "Hey, this is me. This is what I'm doing. This is why I'd love to be on this show." And we always try and at least have it, like, every quarter, or every three months or so, trying to get a guest so we can really interact more with the community. So thanks so much for filling that out and saying, "Hey, I want to be a guest on the show." I also want to give a shout-out to Over Mangacast [Transcriber Note: Not sure where this person came from, so I can't confirm name formatting. If you could double check please.] for figuring out the cover art reference for our episode on Zan. That was a really fun one! So it seems like that might be a fun thing, so maybe we'll keep doing it. Where the first person to message us when we make that post saying "Hey! I know what this is making fun of." 10 points! This cover art guys- Would you agree this is probably gonna be a big, old softball getting the reference?

Jordan  1:42  
Yeah. 

Eric  1:43  
Yeah.

Jordan  1:44  
It's kind of one of the most well known, uh, properties in, uh, mainstream nerd media of the past 10 years or so.

David  2:00  
Yeah. Unlike this series, which I would say is not mainstream media. So why don't we get into, though, telling the audience a little bit about this manga.

Jordan  2:07  
I would say that one-third of this manga's title is mainstream media.

David  2:12  
"The"?

Jordan  2:14  
Yes. 

Eric  2:14  
Yeah.

David  2:17  
Alright! Let's get into it. So, first of all: A note from our wonderful researcher Tucker who says, "Saiyuki is the Japanese name of the traditional Japanese legend 'Journey to the West.' " 

Jordan  2:26  
Oh yeah! 

David  2:27  
So it's quite interesting. I wonder why they chose to call it that, instead of just, actually, calling it, like, a reference to "Journey to the West"? 

Jordan  2:34  
Well because it was Japanese, David.

David  2:36  
Fine yeah. But yeah. But I mean they've- They've done that before where- You know what I mean?

Jordan  2:40  
Usually speaking, when it's, like, anime, they usually do just call it "Saiyuki".

David  2:45  
Mmmh. 

Jordan  2:46  
There's like literally 10 different anime called Saiyuki.

David  2:50  
Fair. Eric, how familiar are you with "Journey to the West"?

Eric  2:52  
Not at all.

Jordan  2:54  
You ever see, uh, Dragon Ball Z? Or the original Dragon Ball?

Eric  2:58  
I sure haven't. Because when I was thinking about-

Jordan  3:01  
Woah. 

Eric  3:01  
What recommendations to do later, I was like, "I don't think I've actually seen a single other 'Journey to the West' adaptation." So literally, all I know is that somehow it's Dragon Ball.

Jordan  3:14  
I refuse to believe that. The thing about "Journey to the West" is that, it is probably the single most influential, uh, work of fiction on anime and manga. Like-

David  3:25  
Mhhm. 

Jordan  3:25  
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. If you read every single issue that appears in Shonen Jump, then you've absolutely read manga that copy it's plot points.

David  3:33  
Yeah.

Eric  3:33  
Oh. Sure. I guess I just couldn't think of anything that was, like, as blatant, I guess, as this one is. You know if, like, literally "Saiyuki" in the title.

David  3:42  
I mean, Dragon Ball- The character's name is Goku.

Eric  3:44  
Yeah.

Jordan  3:44  
Dragon Ball started off as, like, an adaptation of "Journey to the West"-

David  3:49  
Yeah. 

Jordan  3:49  
And Toriyama got bored. 

David  3:50  
Yeah. And then he threw aliens and shit in. 

Jordan  3:52  
It changed before that. But yes. Basically Shonen Jump was like, "Toriyama, hey. Uh, this manga is not doing well at all, this 'Journey to the West' adaptation." He's like, "Fuck it! I'll make a fighting tournament then." And that worked.

David  4:04  
Yeah. "Journey to the West", kind of, is structured like a very proto-manga in a way. Because- 

Jordan  4:09  
Yes. 

David  4:09  
It's kind of just a story that the author just kept adding material on. Like, it's not like someone set out and said, "I'm going to write a book!" They just kind of, like- "I have a bunch of cool ideas. I'm going to keep it going as long as I have ideas!" Like, I think there's, like, a very, very long YouTube series where they summarize "Journey to the West" and the fact that its so long, despite them summarizing it. And it-

Jordan  4:27  
Yeah.

David  4:27  
Really is kind of manga-structured, where it's just kind of mini-arcs. They add characters. They do- There's a lot of filler to it, where they're literally like- There's, like, 12 chapters where nothing important happens, just to pace the story. And it just, literally, is broken into different arcs with different villains, and like different power-ups and main character deaths.

Jordan  4:42  
If you've read a manga where, like- You know, you're following a group of guys, and they're just walking through a forest, and they're, like, on a mission to deliver something or... Something like that. I don't know. And they're just hanging out in the forest. That's influenced by "Journey to the West" and shit.

Eric  4:58  
So "Journey to the West" is just the origin of dudes being dudes, basically?

Jordan  5:04  
In manga, yes. Pretty much. And you got one dude who's like, "Wow! They're just, like, way too strong for everybody else." Man! This one dude, he can get shot and he fle- He's fine and he pushes it off, because he's Goku. 

David  5:17  
Yeah. He's literally Goku.

Jordan  5:18  
I don't know as much about "Journey to the West" as I think I do.

David  5:21  
You know more than the average American, so that's still a lot. But I think enough about that. Why don't we talk about this series as well? So though: This series was created by Nonoue J- Uh, Daijirou, and they actually worked as an assistant to Masahiro, uh, Hirakata, another author with canceled series under their belt, including Best Blue and some other manga I've never heard of. That author, though, is currently doing okay on Jump+ with "Debbie the Corsifa is Emulous"  

Jordan  5:45  
Wow!

David  5:46  
Yeah. What a title

Jordan  5:47  
What a title.

David  5:48  
And that fun fact comes from MaxyBee. MaxyBee is hopefully going to be helping us, much like Tucker, with some additional contextual Shonen Jump series. So, rather than from like a translation perspective, MaxyBee is coming from more of like a Jump historian perspective. And if you haven't: He was our guest in our last episode. Absolutely fantastic details on Zan, a very shit manga. But to get back into this though; The author's other works include Mutou Black, which ran for 12 chapters, and Sajitari, which was a one shot. And this author actually hasn't done anything since, which I guess three years isn't crazy long, but I would have expected them to pop up back again.

Jordan  6:19  
Maybe they're water shedding, you know? They were like, "Alright. I fucked this up! Give me a few years to just get better."

David  6:25  
I mean, yeah. It was what? Five years between Doron Dororon and Golem Hearts. Though that author didn't really grow that much. 

Jordan  6:31  
There was grow- There was some growth. 

David  6:33  
It was an improvement, but it wasn't five years of improvement. It was what I would have expected after like two years off. 

Jordan  6:37  
Yeah. You know. 

David  6:38  
But yeah. And this series ran from March 4th, 2018 to August 19th, 2019. It was three volumes and 24 chapters. Alright, so let's get into the "Plot Summary". So Jordan, though: Why don't you kick things off and tell us what happened in the series?

Jordan  6:52  
Alright! Ryunosuke [Transcriber Note: Shall be further referred to as Ryu] is a little kid who loves baseball. His mom died and he wants to join the baseball team at school. However, his deadbeat dad, Gohaku, shows up one day to give him a new little sister. Her name is Koharu. She has no arms or legs, is blind, and hasn't spoken since her parents died. Gohaku tells Ryu to take care of her, which leads to Koharu going to the hospital for heatstroke, and Ryu is punished for this by getting locked up in a dark room by Shitty Dad, where he imagines a big monster, but he thinks it's a dream. Then the monster attacks for real, but his dad saved him using the Power Pole from Dragon Ball. Literally! The monster is a manifestation of fear. It involves a complicated power system called "Mou", where everyone's got a Mou, but normally it's in a box. If you let the Mou out of the box, it'll monsterize. And if you kill it, you will be free of the fear. There's more to it, but I- I don't know how else. I- I- It's complicated. Anyway, Koharu is a celestial dragon. Popcorn, David.

David  7:51  
I'm just thinking, "Mou in a Box!" [Starts singing a rendition of D**k in a Box by The Lonely Island] Oh, baby! That's what you're gonna get; Is Mou in a box. Oh, that would have actually been a fun cover art too. Nah. I think what we picked was probably the best. 

Jordan  8:01  
Nah. What we did is fine. 

David  8:02  
Uh, especially because they're little kids. That's- Yeah- That's- We're not School Judgment here.

Jordan  8:06  
Yeah, yeah. This series is not creepy like that. 

David  8:09  
We'll get into that in the positives, though. Speaking of monsters, the monster appears and Ryu defeats it with his own power pole, which is special because it can change shape on the fly. Gohaku takes Ryu and Koharu to the magical world, where everyone is a Stand user. We meet Estelle, not to be confused with the singer, uh, and cast member of Steven Universe. 

Jordan  8:26  
Or Estelle Getty from, uh, Golden Girls. 

David  8:28  
We meet Estelle, an 11-year-old who is obsessed with fake Sailor Moon as a way to cope with the death of her mother. I think? Yeah. I think that is the case Jordan. 

Jordan  8:36  
I think? 

David  8:36  
It's complicated. But she spent a very long time telling us about it. There's a creepy kid named Sai, and- And Koharu and Sai are half-Goku. Not that one that you're thinking of.

Jordan  8:45  
But kind of that one that you're thinking of.

David  8:46  
Koharu has a Yami Yugi inside of her named Kei, who is a manifestation of the apocalypse. Maybe? Yeah, this series is not very sure about a lot of things. Divine Beings want to become true humans, which I believe is the secret ending In Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne. So, they have to suppress their emotions. There's a justification for why, but it's long and this series just- This series really was both pretentious and didn't know what it wanted. And then it- 

Jordan  9:07  
It had a lot to say, and in the process of doing so wound up not saying very much.

David  9:13  
Yeah. But, popcorn, Eric.

Eric  9:16  
then they spend, like, ten chapters discussing the mythical, logical connections between the "Ramayana" and "Journey to the West". And I'm going to be honest: I think you have to know more about them than I do in order to follow. Right now, the biggest enemy is the fear of a natural disaster that will destroy the Earth, and Koharu is the Earth, and she was created by Ryunosuke's mother. Aside: I will say, I have read this series twice and I still don't fully understand that either. And people-

Jordan  9:43  
Nah. 

Eric  9:43  
Don't open their Mou anymore, because of science. Gohaku was never hugged by his dad, and that's why he loved his wife Momo, who he also physically abused. Okay th- This is getting dark now. I feel- [Sounds of stressed disgust] Inappropriate about joking about any of it. 

Jordan  9:57  
Yeah. 

Eric  9:57  
Everyone wants the perfect, ultimate power source, which is a really nice ball. Oswald never could have made that shot from that angle. The world ends. Maybe? I have absolutely, truly no idea what happens next. But there's a timeskip to when everyone is older, and the comic just ends. And if there's anything that I think that summary is gonna let the listeners know, it is that this was a massive, fucking tonal whiplash of a comic.

David  10:23  
It really was.

Jordan  10:25  
There were moments where it was, like, very sweet. And then it just, like- Murder! Like this comic felt like it was trying to be Chainsaw Man sometimes. 

David  10:34  
It kind of had the same idea as Chainsaw Man, where it's all about the level-

Jordan  10:38  
Yeah! 

David  10:38  
Of fear. Which- I think this came out before Chainsaw Man though.

Jordan  10:40  
It came out in 2019. I thought Chainsaw Man was already out by then?

David  10:43  
Yeah, Chainsaw Man started... Oh, no, you're right. This is after. Chainsaw Man was 2018. You are completely right Jordan. So this did rip off Chainsaw Man. 

Jordan  10:50  
Yeah. Thank you. 

Eric  10:51  
It was only, like, three months difference, or something like that. It was relatively quick after.

Jordan  10:55  
It feels like I'm reading this, uh, very child friendly manga. And then I turn the page and suddenly I'm reading Jujutsu Kaisen. And then I turn the page and I'm reading B. Ichi! 

David  11:07  
But I think we can talk about that in "Why it failed?", cuz we still got some characters to go through. 

Jordan  11:10  
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 

David  11:11  
So first of all, we've got, uh, Ryunosuke: Loves baseball, third-grader, dead mom, super brave, good with his power pole. That is not a euphemism because he is like nine-years-old.

Jordan  11:20  
You're talking about tonal whiplash, Ryunosuke is a great example of that. Because he's supposed to be like eight-years-old. 

David  11:25  
And he's written like, he's 15. 

Jordan  11:27  
He is written like the character-

David  11:28  
Yeah. 

Jordan  11:28  
From Godspeed. Where it's just, like- He just gets so angry all the time. He gets so mad, but he's also like a great dude. Everybody says that he's a really good guy, is what I mean by that. Just like how, in "The Room", everybody keeps telling Tommy, "You're my best friend!" and "You're such a great guy!". Kinda like that-

David  11:45  
Yeah. 

Jordan  11:45  
With Ryunosuke. Where his dad's just like, "Man! You care so much about your disabled little sister, after you spent the entire first chapter complaining about her."

David  11:54  
And I'm like, "Uh... If you say so?"

Eric  11:58  
The thing about Ryonosuke is: All the best parts of his character are theoretical and not what's actually done.

David  12:05  
Yeah! 

Eric  12:05  
Because like-

Jordan  12:05  
Yes! 

Eric  12:06  
When I was reading it, I was like, "Theoretically, it could be interesting to have a protagonist who, like, is actually a bratty child because he's an-

Jordan  12:14  
Yeah. 

Eric  12:14  
Elementary school student." And it makes sense that he's not doing a good job, being forced to be a parent. Except then, everyone decides he suddenly is, and after letting his sister have a heat stroke, everyone's just like, "Well, you care now. Everyone loves you." There's no actual redemption arc. It's just, "I've decided for my own sake to be less of a douche."

David  12:37  
I just think it's dumbfounding that they made him, like, eight-years-old, given this plot.

Jordan  12:42  
You can pull this off if you- Uh...

Eric  12:45  
Are Tatsuki Fujimoto?

Jordan  12:47  
That's not a fair comparison. You're right. Fujimoto could have pulled this plot off. 

David  12:51  
Well, he does. Because Denji is a selfish piece of shit. 

Jordan  12:54  
Yes! Exactly, actually. That's a very good point. I think part of it is just that, uh, Denji has fun. Ryunosuke does not have fun.

David  13:02  
Yeah. I mean Denji is, like, the id, as a person. If I'm not getting that backwards. 

Jordan  13:06  
Yeah. 

David  13:06  
I think we talked about- In the Chainsaw- How Denji, Power, and, uh- Shit! What's his name? 

Jordan  13:11  
Aki.

David  13:11  
Yeah. They represent the id, the ego, and the super-ego, in my opinion.

Jordan  13:15  
Yeah. I always get them confused too sometimes. But, I feel like Power and Denji are both kind of id-like in their own way. But anyway! We're not talking about The Last Saiyuki. 

David  13:24  
Tell us Jordan. Tell us about the magical girl of this series, but not the, uh- The one that's literally trying to be a magical girl.

Jordan  13:29  
So Koharu is a little girl with no arms or legs and she is blind. To hide the fact that she has no arms or legs, they gave her mannequin doll parts. So I was very offended at- 

David  13:40  
I thought she was created with them, it turns out? 

Jordan  13:43  
David, I have no idea! Maybe she did. Maybe she was. I don't know! This series was very confusing. But I got extremely offended reading the first chapter of this series, and I gotta say, it does a much better job of-

David  13:55  
Yeah. 

Jordan  13:55  
Treating Koharu as it goes on. There's a couple instances. Like when Estelle shows up, it was so sweet because she actually takes care of Koharu, and she does a better job of it. And it was very sweet to just see, like, this little girl- "Oh this slightly, older girl is taking care of her in a good way. Alright. Ey!" 

David  14:12  
Yeah. And I mean, like, she also gained some semblance of independence. I actually thought-

Jordan  14:17  
Yes! 

David  14:17  
It was clever how since she can levitate, she can fake walking using her levitation abilities.

Jordan  14:21  
I thought that was cool too. Yeah, yeah. She like uses telekinesis to move her prosthetic limbs around. And yeah. It gives her the ability to walk around. And, like, you could, if you wanted to, just be like, "Aww. They took away some of her disability, you know? Blah, blah, blah, blah." But I'm not going to do that, because I just think it is such an improvement for how they did it in the first chapter. She becomes a character with, like, her own voice. It's still not, like-

David  14:42  
Mhhm. 

Jordan  14:42  
Great, just because the series in general is not written well. But I mean, I kind of felt bad for how mean I was to the series initially.

David  14:50  
Yes. But Eric, do you mind telling us about the dad?

Eric  14:52  
Yeah. So the father is, like, "Link A" in the chain of abuse here. Where he is-

Jordan  15:00  
Yeah. 

Eric  15:01  
"Link A", then Ryunosuke, then Koharu, then [sound of disgust]. But basically, his main, defining visual signifiers are that: He has an extremely long nose, that is not commented upon. It's just a very big pointy nose. And he has an eyepatch. 

Jordan  15:16  
There's actually a very obvious reason, to me at least, why he has a long nose. And that is, that Kite from Hunter x Hunter has a long nose, and he looks exactly like Kite from Hunter x Hunter.

David  15:28  
He does, doesn't he? They don't explain the eyepatch, right?

Eric  15:30  
I don't remember them ever mentioning it.

Jordan  15:33  
They mentioned it once, and I don't think they explain how it is. Like, this series also reminds me a lot of Samurai 8 [The Tale of Hachimaru], just in how it is structured and how it ends. Like, cuz Samurai 8 ended with, basically, a teaser for a sequel series that never got written. 

David  15:50  
That was probably going to be much more interesting. 

Jordan  15:51  
Yes. And this series does the exact same thing. Where it just ends with like, "Oh man! Tune in next week for their adventures. Oh, I'm just kidding actually. The manga's over".

David  16:01  
"We got cancelled!" 

Jordan  16:02  
Yeah. 

David  16:02  
"Never mind." 

Jordan  16:02  
"Never mind'". But, uh....

David  16:04  
Hungry Joker does the exact s- Literally ends identically, where it's all the characters together about to fight the last arc. 

Jordan  16:09  
Yeah, Hungry Joker does that too. It's like when, like, a child's pet dies and you're like, "Oh, it's not over. It's just, uh, it's just going to the farm."

Eric  16:17  
Oh, God!

Jordan  16:17  
Yeah. 

David  16:19  
Yeah. Alright. But- [Giggle] So next up though is Sai, who is second-in-command in the Followers of Chaos; Looks like a little kid. Evil bad guy, but I- I guess becomes a good guy at the end-

Jordan  16:28  
Does he? 

David  16:28  
Based on the timeskip. Yeah, he's with them at the end. 

Jordan  16:31  
Yeah, you're right. He is. Yeah. 

David  16:33  
Yeah. So he just has a complete redemption arc that they just don't show.

Jordan  16:35  
We never find out what happened. But I guess in the, uh, unspecified number of years between the timeskip, some stuff happens that I guess was not important enough for us to know. So...

David  16:48  
Yeah. And he was, like, originally one being with Koharu. So it's kind of like a ying-yang, I guess.

Jordan  16:53  
They were both Goku. 

David  16:55  
Yeah. 

Jordan  16:55  
I guess.

Eric  16:56  
So- [Jordan with interupting laughter] My only reference is Dragon Ball. Is there a second Goku there? Is there some clone shit in-

David  17:04  
No. 

Eric  17:04  
Fucking "Journey to the West". What is happening?

David  17:08  
I don't think there is.

Jordan  17:10  
You could argue that Cell is kind of a clone of Goku. And there are a bunch of characters who look like Goku: There's Goten obviously, who is his son.

David  17:19  
Um, Eric, you were asking about "Journey to the West", not Dragon Ball Z right?

Eric  17:22  
Uh, well kind of both. 

David  17:24  
"Journey to the West": I don't think there's any siblings or clones of the Monkey King.

Jordan  17:28  
But we also don't know shit about the intricacies of "Journey to the West". There might be

David  17:33  
I am actually surprised though they didn't split the name "Goku" into two pieces.

Eric  17:39  
Like "Go" and "Ku"?

David  17:40  
She could have been, like, "Goharu" and he could have been like "Kuai" or something.

Jordan  17:44  
Here's the problem, David. This series relies on pretty in depth knowledge of "Journey to the West", and to be fair: It is a level of knowledge that maybe, as a Japanese reader who grew up in Japan, it's a level of knowledge that I might know. I don't know exactly how well-known this stuff is. It's kind of, like, how we talk about, um, in Gun Blaze West, where it's like, "Well, any American would understand where these Wild West tropes come from." Maybe that's the same thing? But regardless, reading it as an American, I don't know. Maybe that was a pun on something.

David  18:17  
Yeah. I honestly have no idea why they thought this series would be a good idea to professionally fully translate.

Eric  18:22  
It was, like, right after Jump started, like, doing all of them. It was just kind of by default, you know? Cuz, like, the round before this was like Chainsaw Man and Hell Warden Higuma. Like, back when they first started doing everything. 

Jordan  18:36  
Oh man, Hell Warden Higuma!

David  18:38  
Oh, what a series!

Jordan  18:40  
What a blast from the past.

Eric  18:42  
Would it be more fun to discuss Hell Warden Higuma? Is that actually better than this?

Jordan  18:47  
No. 

David  18:48  
But it would be fun to talk about Estelle, cuz at least it makes me think of Steven Universe. Oh, wait, no. That was- Sorry! That was Sia, who was in Tokyo Shinobi Squad. 

Jordan  18:56  
Yes. 

David  18:56  
So Estelle, though, is 11-years-old. She uses their, like, magic system, and she's part of the Monster Defense Alliance. 

Jordan  19:03  
She does not look 11-years-old at all! I mean, like, I don't mean that in the sense that she's, like, oversexualized. I mean, in the sense that: No. She literally look- Like, she's drawn to be 16. Like, literally she looks 16. 

David  19:15  
Yeah, the author keeps making her boobs appear and disappear.

Eric  19:17  
[Sigh] Oh God... 

David  19:18  
Cuz I think he, likewise, forgot she-

Jordan  19:20  
Yeah. 

David  19:20  
Was supposed to be prepubescent.

Jordan  19:21  
I don't think that he's trying to sexualize her, but I think that's just how he draws.

David  19:27  
Yeah. Like, remember, the mom had giant bazongas for no reason.

Jordan  19:31  
Yeah. Honestly, when I'm reading manga, my perception of how big boobs are just kind of goes out the window. Because, like, I just assume if I'm reading manga, they're just, as a default, gonna have big boobs. And that's just average in that world. Just cuz that's how it is.

David  19:46  
Oh, God. Alright. She's probably, I think, the best character in the series. 

Jordan  19:49  
Yeah, I agree. 

David  19:50  
Would you call her a "Sora"? So, uh, Eric, for reference, that's just when there's a character that's substantially better written than everyone else, in a series. And that comes from Beast Children.

Eric  19:58  
I did read Beast Children. I did read that one.

David  20:00  
Oh, God! Why would you do that? But, so you know what we mean though, by how Sora was just the only character that was- Any writing effort was put in.

Eric  20:06  
Maybe this is going to be unpopular, but I'm about to compare Beast Children as being better than something. 

Jordan  20:12  
It is. 

Eric  20:13  
I don't know if I would call Estelle-

David  20:15  
Yeah. 

Eric  20:15  
A "Sora". Because I think it's less that Estelle has anything interesting, so much as it just feels like a more, just base competent, sort of concept of a character. In comparison to-

Yeah. 

Abusive child who suddenly isn't considered abusive, and then, just, Object Sister, you know? Cuz it's like, she has her whole thing of- We get her motivation, we get the backstory with the mom, she has, like, a unique visual whatever thing. Like the "Magical Girl" theme compared to the other characters. But she's not actually cool or interesting. It just feels like the writer came up with a character profile and finished it, which is more than half of the upper cast.

David  20:57  
That's the thing, is Sora isn't, like, an exquisitely well-written character. It was just, he is like a C- in a sea of D's and F's. 

Jordan  21:04  
Yeah.

Eric  21:04  
Yeah. I suppose so.

Jordan  21:06  
I think that it is difficult to argue that the series would not be immediately improved if Estelle was the main character versus Ryunosuke. 

David  21:14  
Oh, for sure. 

Jordan  21:15  
She would just be better. 

David  21:17  
Mhhm.

Eric  21:17  
Yeah.

David  21:18  
She's also the only character with any backstory.

Jordan  21:21  
She actually takes care of Koharu in, like, the most heartwarming part of the entire series. There's, like, just a couple pages of like, "Oh, they're hanging out. They're taking a bath together. She bathes this child, this young child. Thank God somebody is bathing her." Didn't even realize until just now: Does this mean that Ryunosuke was in charge with bathing Koharu this whole time!? There's no way he actually did that.

Eric  21:45  
Probably. Cuz like-

David  21:47  
Yeah. 

Eric  21:47  
He was taking her to the bathroom and everything. 

Jordan  21:49  
Jesus...

Eric  21:50  
That poor girl. 

Jordan  21:51  
This author picked a very bad way to start this series. 

David  21:55  
Yeah. But we have one more character to talk about. So- 

Jordan  21:58  
Oh, yeah! The guy who looks he- Like he was out of Demon Slayer.

David  22:01  
Yeah. So Eric, do you mind telling us about Estelle's master?

Eric  22:05  
So we have Niro Furuka, who is allegedly 32-years-old, and is the master; A senior official; Like, one of the high-ranking people at the organization that Ryunosuke's dad works for. And just, like, does all the plot exposition about what the fuck is going on. And, listeners if you haven't read it: This is a child! They say he is 32. He is the same height, same everything. And emotionally, he just sort of suppresses his emotions and acts like he doesn't care. But he has the whole sort of, "Oh, I do care about Estelle, but I won't acknowledge it."

Jordan  22:44  
He's tsundere. 

David  22:45  
[Laughs to himself] He's tsundere.

Jordan  22:46  
Yeah.

Eric  22:46  
Yeah. 

Jordan  22:47  
It's not like I like you or anything, Estelle.

David  22:50  
I mean it's an interesting contrast with Levi, who is likewise a fully grown adult who's extremely short. Like Levi is what, 5'2" I think? 

Jordan  22:56  
You mean from, uh- 

David  22:58  
Attack on Titan. 

Jordan  22:58  
Yeah, that's what I thought. 

David  22:59  
Cuz Levi: You can tell this is just a short, fully grown adult. Niro, they just have to tell you he is not a child. 

Jordan  23:06  
You know what man? We support our short kings. 

David  23:08  
Yes. 

Jordan  23:08  
But the main thing you got to know about Niro is: Alright. So if you've seen an anime that came out after My Hero Academia, then you have seen this character. He's an instructor. He's just tired and nonplussed. And he has huge black bags under his eyes to show that he's exhausted, and kind of out of it. This has been in so many things that I've seen since My Hero Academia. You've all seen this character, and that's who this is.

Eric  23:35  
So he's Aizawa with every single, cool thing stripped away?

Jordan  23:40  
Yeah. I think it's just how the artist is deciding to draw his hair, but his hair just looks like it comes from Demon Slayer. You know? 

David  23:47  
Yeah. I mean, this guy is clearly ripping off everything that's currently successful Shonen Jump, when he made this series. 

Jordan  23:52  
Yeah. And hey. You know, that's how you start. [Loud laugh]

David  23:55  
It is. But, I think that's a good way, though, to segue into "What the Series Didn't Do So Well", because this series had a very bad start. So Jordan, I know you love this series. So it's gonna pain-

Jordan  24:04  
Oh yeah. 

David  24:05  
For you to say: What do you think this series did not do so well? Besides the things we've already brought up.

Jordan  24:09  
The basic issue is that the writer is just- He can't write. 

David  24:12  
Yeah. 

Jordan  24:13  
He just can't write. Like, there are so many parts of this series where the dialogue is literally just like, "What do you mean the thing you just said is happening!? What do you mean that's going on?". Like, "What do you mean I'm responding to what you just said in a way that tells the viewer what you just said." It's so "tell, don't show" and the problem is, there's maybe, like, a brief window of time where the artist kind of leans on his art ability, and he takes the focus off the dialogue for like two or three chapters. I started thinking, "Is this a good series?" And then the author decided, "Alright. Now I got to do worldbuilding. So let me explain to you this world." And then I realized, "Oh, no. This is not a good series." Because the author is just totally unable to communicate the basics of this story and the world in a way that is coherent. It is constantly switching. It is just completely jumbled. It is impossible to follow after a certain point.

Yeah. This series just didn't make any sense, and the author was just overwriting everything. 

Yeah. 

David  25:17  
He is a good artist. He should just draw. He should not be writing. 

Jordan  25:19  
Yes. I think that maybe someday he will be able to write, but it is not this day.

David  25:25  
Yeah. And to add to that, with the- The everything you've shown, everything only is talked about when it's relevant. Like for instance-

Jordan  25:30  
Yes! 

David  25:30  
I think its, like, in Chapter Four, they talked about, "Oh! He mentioned this shit to his friend. And that caused everything." Why didn't you just show him mentioning this, during that scene, when he was on the baseball team, instead of inventing a flashback?

Jordan  25:42  
He didn't realize that the friend would be a part of the- [Starts to break into laughter] The manga. 

David  25:45  
Yes, Jordan! I'm aware that the answer to everything is "Why didn't he do this? Because he's not good at writing." 

Jordan  25:49  
He just came up with it right before he did it. Yes.

David  25:51  
Yes. You know? How 90% of shonen manga are written. 

Jordan  25:55  
Yeah. And to be fair, it doesn't do it as poorly as Zan did it.

David  25:59  
Yeah. 

Jordan  25:59  
But it's still- You don't want to be on the spectrum where you're getting compared to Zan at all. Like...

David  26:05  
Zan fucking sucks. But Eric how 'bout you? What were some negatives that you identified?

Eric  26:08  
Like, the main thing, even just conceptually, going against it, is that all of the most potentially interesting aspects of the plot are things that you just can't do in Weekly Shonen Jump. You know? 

David  26:21  
Mhhm. 

Jordan  26:21  
Mmmh.

Eric  26:22  
Where, like, I mentioned earlier, like, Ryunosuke: You could do something interesting with just, "Oh, this protagonist is unlikable and awful, because he's literally a child, who has been child abused."

David  26:33  
Yeah. 

Eric  26:33  
But this is Weekly Shonen Jump. So we have the children reading it. They want their hero to identify with. We're not going to get a well-written treatise on, like, cycles of abuse. It's just not going to happen. What we're going to get-

Jordan  26:47  
Right. 

Eric  26:47  
Is Ryunosuke says, "Well, I was locked in a room with the lights off, and so I've decided I know how you feel being blind. And now I'm gonna-

Jordan  26:57  
Yeah! 

Eric  26:58  
Be a good brother. And we're gonna go from there, and I'll be your hero. And, of course, you're just gonna love me and call me 'Big Brother'; And why would you ever complain about when I let you get a seizure, because you're an object that exists for me to love and to be loved?"

David  27:15  
Yeah. The series of the story is so fucking pretentious. Also, I want to highlight: Throwing someone in a room is actually, generally, considered one of the most barbaric forms of torture.

Jordan  27:23  
It was harrowing! He shoved his young child into a dark room and was not going to open the door. Like, he just left. He was not, like, keeping track of him or anything. The only way he got out of it was that his little sister decided to bash her head in, against the door, until it opened. 

David  27:41  
Why didn't she use her telepathy to just open it? 

Jordan  27:44  
The author didn't realize she could do that yet. 

David  27:46  
Okay. 

Jordan  27:47  
That reminds me: I think the big issue with this series is that if we were allowed to have complex feelings about Ryunosuke, it would feel better. But we're not allowed to, cuz the author keeps telling us, "No. He's actually very mature. And he's actually like, really nice." 

David  28:01  
He's an old soul.

Jordan  28:03  
It's a similar thing with, um, Tokyo Shinobi Squad. I bring up how the author is constantly like, "Jim is so cool! Isn't he? Look how cool he is! Yeah, all these characters talk about how cool Jim is!" It's like this, except they're like, "Man. Ryunosuke is such a nice guy." 

David  28:16  
Yeah. 

Jordan  28:16  
There's a point where his dad is just like, "You know something, Ryunosuke? Most kids would have only cared about themselves in the situation, but you really care about Koharu." And it's like, "I just read a chapter where I got pissed at how he did not care about Koharu and only cared about himself! What are you talking about?"

Eric  28:31  
It's, like, really, like, character and consistency too. 

Jordan  28:35  
Yes. 

Eric  28:36  
Like the moments where Ryunosuke will say something that's correct, and he'll say- Being selfish but he'll have the, like, knowledge and awareness to be like, "The way that my dad pushed you on me, and, like, made me responsible for taking care of you was fucked up of him." And it's like, "Am I supposed to believe Ryunosuke has that mature of an understanding of, like, neglect and bad parenting, but also was so uncaring that he's going to leave his disabled sister without any help, to the point where she has, like, heat stroke? Like which one is it?"

David  29:07  
Yeah. Like NPS should have intervened after the heat stroke incident, and he would have lost access to his children. 

Jordan  29:13  
NPS? 

David  29:14  
Er, uh... CPS. Child Protective Services. Yeah.

Jordan  29:17  
I didn't know if you looked up the exact, uh- 

David  29:19  
No. 

Jordan  29:20  
Japanese de- bo- Board that carries that, and you're like, "Oh. They're called NPS." But now, to give an example of what I was talking about with his dad: You can have this type of character. You 100% can. Gon's dad is an example of this, from Hunter x Hunter. Where-

David  29:33  
Yeah. 

Jordan  29:33  
He's just, like, a shitty dad, but the way he's portrayed is very, uh, complicated and Togashi lets you hate him.

David  29:41  
Yeah. Also, like, characters pretty consistently say, "Gon: You are a giant piece of shit!" Like Leorio literally punches him in the face.

Nobody says that Gon is a piece of shit. Everybody says Ging is a piece of shit. 

Er.. Sorry. Ging. Like Leorio is like, "Ging: Why the fuck haven't you visited your son that's in the hospital?!

Jordan  29:57  
One of the best moments in the entire series, by the way. 

David  29:59  
Yeah. I love that moment. Or remember when he was trying to leave again and everyone yelled at him, so he had to stay and wait? 

Jordan  30:05  
Yeah. 

Eric  30:05  
The way that every Hunter is united in thinking Ging is a douchebag.

Jordan  30:10  
It's so good. It's so good! It's almost like Hunter x Hunter is a well-written manga. Unlike-

David  30:16  
Yes.

Jordan  30:16  
The Last Saiyuki.

David  30:17  
Yeah.

Jordan  30:17  
Oh my God! We're doing it again. We're talking about a better manga instead of the one we're supposed to be talking about.

Eric  30:21  
We're talking about one of the best manga in comparison-

Jordan  30:26  
Yes, yes, yes. 

Eric  30:26  
To this.

David  30:27  
Speaking of bad writing, I always fucking hate when these series have a magical memory eraser, button because it lets the author say, "Hey! We don't need to worry about long term repercussions for anything. I don't have to worry about having challenges to the status quo. I can just keep phoning it in, cuz we'll remove your memories after we have the adventure of the week. Men in Black is the only time where it was cool.

Jordan  30:50  
Yeah. I can't even get mad about it, because the method in which they do it was weirdly, like, cute. They have this big, weird, goofy dude; This big, weird, goofy, like, monster or whatever, and, it's just like, turns it's head and, like, sucks out your memories. And then it smiles and gives a thumbs up to the camera. It actually looks like- David, are you familiar with the Moomins?

David  31:12  
The Finnish thing, right? I have a Moomin, uh, water bottle actually in my room. 

Jordan  31:16  
Hey! But yeah. It looks like a Moomin. I actually, really liked that, uh, that little the- That little dude.

David  31:21  
Awww.

Jordan  31:22  
He doesn't appear enough in the series.

David  31:24  
Awwh. I had one last negative I want to say, is that: I think the pacing improves around chapter 14, but then it gets really fast paced. We get like Zan-style chapters, where, literally, you read it for 30 seconds. And I can imagine reading that weekly and being like, "Okay. So, like, pretty much 10 seconds of content actually happened in this chapter". Which is better than it being an insane amount of text. But still, I would have been, like, very unsatisfied reading this week to week with the pacing that it took for like the next 10 chapters.

Jordan  31:49  
David, there was a point in this series, towards the very end, where I felt like I was watching the two last episodes of Evangelion. Just like the way in which it was so abstract, except not interesting. Like not with any of the subtext. Like, "What if the last two episodes were just as hard to follow, but had nothing interesting to say".

Eric  32:07  
While we're on the topic of bad things: Can we also just briefly mention how horribly the baseball metaphor was handled?

Jordan  32:17  
Yeah. 

Eric  32:18  
Honestly, parts of the first chapter could have been the backstory in a baseball manga. Where we have little Ryunosuke, at the park, with his big-tiddy mommy, and- [Laughter] He's watching the players, and he's so excited. And I think, like, his mom caught a home run ball for him. And it was just, "Oh my God! I love baseball to the point that I'll abuse my sister, so I can go play it after school and she can get heatstroke".

Jordan  32:42  
God. 

Eric  32:42  
"Who cares?" But like- It just keeps coming up, and like they tried to do, like, visual parallels between the way he, like, uses his staff, and like the way he would swing a baseball bat. But the physical motions don't match and it never works. And he just keeps talking about home runs or whatever the fuck. 

David  33:00  
He has a thrusting weapon. 

Eric  33:01  
Yeah.

Jordan  33:02  
Yeah. Yeah. You know what it feels like? Is that the author had an idea for the first chapter or whatever, he wrote it, and then went back to read it to write the next one and was like, "Oh, my God! This chapter sucks. I need to course correct." But the problem is, he still had to stick with the things he set up in the first chapter. So like, "Well, he's a baseball guy. And I call this The Last Saiyuki, so he's got to use the power pole, I guess. Alright. Well, whatever! I guess I'm stuck with that." 

David  33:31  
Yeah. 

Jordan  33:31  
And then- Yeah. He was not able to recover, because he was not a good enough writer to pull that off. 

David  33:36  
He is not. He does still have some good ideas. So why don't we migrate into "What it Did Well?".

Jordan  33:40  
Mhhm. 

David  33:40  
Okay. So Eric, though, speaking of things that are positive- And having you on the show is definitely big positive in my life. So can you tell us though, what were some things you actually liked about this series?

Eric  33:48  
So I remember reading this as it came out, like three years ago, and I remember liking it. Which I now look back on myself, and I wonder if that says more about who I was as a person then, or about the quality of other Jump manga at the time. But to be kind to myself, the things that are good about it: Is that the art is much better than it has any business being, with how horrible the story is.

Jordan  34:14  
Yes! 

Eric  34:14  
It's not that it's, like, aesthetically, really unique or creative, so much as there's just really strong visual storytelling fundamentals here. Where like- This is an artist who knows he's drawing a comic; Knows how to lead the eye across the page-

David  34:29  
Mhhm 

Eric  34:29  
Knows to vary his page compositions; Knows how to build visual momentum, changes angles, change the perspective. I don't think it actually, necessarily, looks cool. The monster designs especially are boring. But there's just- Visually, if you gave, like, a writer to this artist, and they, like, co-produced a series; Or just, you know, if his writing caught up to where his art is at: This person would be capable of making something much better than this.

David  34:57  
Yeah. There are plenty of art- Writers that he could team up with and truly create a good manga.

Jordan  35:02  
Yeah. Like, the fact is that his art style is kind of generic, which is actually a good thing, if he needs a writer. Like I'll give you an example. Araki could never, ever have his work be written by anybody else. Nobody else could make that art style seem even remotely good, unless he was writing it. This guy, though: His art style is, like, generic enough where this guy can kind of- You can just shove him in anywhere. And he is extremely- Like on a fundamental level: This guy has a really strong sense of design. Like you're talking about, um, composition. There's a level of depth that shows up in this manga, just in terms of how things are drawn, that you just straight up do not see in most manga. Like the manga where I've seen some of this stuff is Chainsaw Man. But again, that's only on a visual level, and only sometimes. Obviously Chainsaw Man is still better than this in literally every way. But again, like- I can go from comparing this- The writing to Zan and now I'm comparing the art to Chainsaw Man. This is kind of at the midpoint, in some ways, between Zan and Chainsaw Man. 

David  36:01  
Oh, God. 

Jordan  36:02  
But I actually think this guy is very talented. He shows off a level of solidity with his art that you don't see. And I also genuinely, really liked a lot of the monsters designs. Cuz it's not just the designs, it's how he draws them, and how he places them in the composition, and the angle you see them from, and it just makes it like so much, more interesting.

David  36:22  
I also, as we talked about- This art doesn't sexualize the children, which- Uh, that's how low our standards are, given School Judgment. I have to say at least the children, for the most part, are drawn actually like children. Maybe drawn a year or two older than they should have been? But it's just- To be honest, it's very difficult to make a series where the protagonist is that young. So I have to at least say that he gave it a good effort. An- And I guess on that note, though, of growing: This is a series where you can really see him improving. Like-

Jordan  36:47  
Yeah. 

David  36:47  
I legitimately look forward to his next manga. The quality from Chapter One to the later chapters is drastic, and I legitimately think that his next manga will probably be a hit, like the My Hero Academia guy.

Jordan  36:57  
Yeah. There's clearly growth going on there. Like, there is a legitimate period in between, uh-

David  37:04  
[Chapter] Twelve to 14, I think is when you really started noticing an increase in quality. 

Jordan  37:07  
Oh, I noticed it immediately. Like Chapter Two through Four even, because what happens is, he starts relying more on visual storytelling. 

David  37:15  
Yeah. The text drastically decreases. 

Jordan  37:18  
The text drastically decreases, and then it drastically increases. 

David  37:21  
Oh yeah. Cuz he doesn't have time to show anything. 

Jordan  37:24  
When the text is decreased, there were moments where I was like, "Is this series good?" And then the text just rapidly increases. You stopped seeing things happen, like visually and stuff, and the quality just drops again.

David  37:37  
Yeah. Which I think might be a good segue into "Where it Could Have Gone?" though. Eric, did you have anything else you'd like to add?

Eric  37:41  
Essentially just, uh, seconding more or less everything you all said. 

David  37:45  
Awesome.

Jordan  37:47  
[Giggles] Cool. We like to hear that. 

David  37:48  
So why don't we go into "Where it Could Have Gone?". So Eric, if you had the ability to have changed things about the series, what would you have probably done differently? 

Eric  37:57  
The main thing- And this sort of gets back to the conflict of, like, what could you actually do in Shonen Jump. But if I'm just going with the story, and not necessarily worrying about, I guess, standards and practices, it's like- The stuff about just abuse here, I think you could actually make an interesting story. Where, if you had an author who wasn't afraid to make Ryunosuke a much more gray character morally. You know? Like, I think the relationship between him and the sister and the father: I think if you just leaned more into the character stuff there-

Jordan  38:32  
Mhhm. 

Eric  38:32  
That could have been good? And, we were talking about, a minute ago like, how the pacing sort of, like, slows and stops with the amount of text, and all of that; And like there's a period in the middle, where when he's not using as much text and not doing as much lore dumping and everything, where it gets more enjoyable and seems good. And honestly, if the series had kept going, I think it might have been able to even out, to a point, where it was more good than bad. Like it was with some of the Estelle stuff. If he didn't then have to rush in, all of that world building, or rather world ending, in the last couple of chapters, where he's like, "Um... Um... Let me throw this in real quick."

Jordan  39:10  
I just wish this was like a webcomic. You know how 90% of web comics, you really do not want to start at the beginning because it sucks? 

David  39:16  
Yep. 

Jordan  39:16  
There's some comics that, if you stick with it, the author grows so much that the comic eventually just becomes significantly better. And I feel like this was really a series that might have wound up this way. But it was not allowed to because it's Shonen Jump. This also just shows how important it is to not, uh, have a really shitty first chapter. 

Eric  39:34  
Yeah. 

Jordan  39:35  
I think what this series really needed is to have a different POV character. Like, I brought up Estelle as the POV.

David  39:42  
Yeah. 

Jordan  39:42  
Maybe she could have been the POV, and what's important is this POV character would have looked at Ryunosuke, and they would- They would have formed a more complicated opinion about him. Like they would have seen "Oh, wow. There- Everybody's telling Ryunosuke like, uh, 'Oh, he's a great guy', but really it's like, 'Can he handle this?' He's not- He's not handling this perfectly".

David  40:02  
I will also say, by the way, this came out after Chainsaw Man, so you legitimately could have child abuse as a plot, at this point. Like, that was really, I think, a door that Chainsaw Man opened, where-

Jordan  40:11  
[Interupting laughter]

David  40:11  
Glad you got that. This really is a series, I think, that could have done what it wanted, but I think the author just was afraid. And he also wasn't good enough to talk about that in a well-made- Like, cuz look at the way he handled people with disability. He was not going to handle child abuse appropriately.

Jordan  40:22  
And to be fair, again, we talked about him improving: He got way better at handling disability as the series went on. But that first impression was so awful! It, like, tainted the rest of the series. And especially because he still had to keep that in continuity- 

David  40:37  
Yeah.

Jordan  40:37  
With, uh, the rest of the series. I also think fundamentally, he's just not good enough to do it. 

David  40:42  
No, he's not. 

Jordan  40:43  
I think it's possible he worked very hard on this, but just does not fundamentally have the storytelling skills to pull it off.

David  40:49  
I totally agree. I also, by the way, had an idea where: What if it was a different direction and this series was just really campy, and like over the top, and it was like a supernatural baseball league? 

Jordan  40:57  
Yeah! 

David  40:57  
And it was Nine Balls Dragon [Transcriber's Note: He means Nine Dragons' Ball] where their opponents are all monsters. 

Jordan  41:00  
This is one of those things where it either needed to take itself more seriously, or significantly less seriously. It is currently in a middle place that is bad for it. 

David  41:08  
Yeah. You don't want to be mediocre at anything. That's the worst place to be. 

Jordan  41:11  
Yes, exactly.

Eric  41:12  
The more we describe the idea of it getting drastically different, the better it sounds. The further we get from what it presently is.

Jordan  41:21  
Yeah. There are- Is, again, moments in this series where I feel like somebody took a good manga, and then just erased all the dialog boxes and wrote them in very poorly with their terrible story.

David  41:31  
This was his Goodbye, Eri.

Jordan  41:33  
[Laughter] 

David  41:35  
If Fujimoto and him had the same, like, idea that created Goodbye, Eri, this is the series that he had using the same idea.

Jordan  41:40  
I would love to see a version of this where somebody just handed Fujimoto the art with all the dialog boxes erased, and he just wrote in what he thought was happening.

David  41:49  
It's like the "Doom" comic, where the guy had the art, and then had to create the dialogue after. 

Jordan  41:53  
"Rip and tear! You have huge guts!" 

David  41:57  
I think we haven't ever talked about that manga before, but- 

Jordan  41:59  
"Doom" manga, yeah! 

David  42:00  
Yeah, yeah. But that's kind of a miscellaneous thought, so let's migrate over there. Okay? 

Jordan  42:05  
Yeah. 

David  42:05  
So I'm gonna kick things off where: I think this series, speaking of how bad the first chapter is- I think Chapter Five, with the baseball fiend, would have been a really good Chapter Two or possibly Chapter One, depending on how he can compress it. Cuz it covers all the bases: It shows the impact of him talking about the monsters, it establishes the world, and it has an interesting fight, without any of that kind of patronizing elements of either the main character or his sister. That's really it is, I think if they had made Chapter Five Chapter Two, the series probably would have done much better.

Yeah. Dude, if they made Chapter Two Chapter One- 

Mhhm.

Jordan  42:35  
The series would have done better.

David  42:37  
Yeah. I also appreciate how much One Piece and Hunter x Hunter established competent adults, despite the protagonists being children. 

Jordan  42:43  
Yeah. 

David  42:44  
Which I really, really liked. Cuz this series falls into that trap where, "Oh. Only the kids can solve these problems for no real reason." 

Jordan  42:50  
Yeah. 

David  42:50  
And even the competent adult is draw- Is drawn like a child. 

Jordan  42:54  
Yeah. This series really fucks that up. It treats the kids like they should be the adults, but it doesn't do it in an interesting or intentional way.

David  43:02  
Yeah. How about you, Eric? What are some miscellaneous thoughts on your mind? 

Eric  43:06  
I'd agree with what you just said, where, like, there's not really meaningful differentiation between the adults- 

David  43:11  
Mhhm.

Eric  43:11  
And the kids in, like, competency or maturity. I think some of the demon stuff had more potential than what was here, in terms of just, like, the idea of these monsters being directly related to fear and ideas of impossibility and stuff. It's not-

Jordan  43:27  
Mhhm. 

Eric  43:27  
That I think the individual, like, base concepts in this series were bad, so much as it just tried to fit in, like, 17 different things at once, then it overloaded. Because it's like, "We're doing a 'Journey to the West' thing, but we're gonna cover it in baseball metaphors that interrupts a story about child abuse, that we're not acknowledging is child abuse."

Jordan  43:51  
There is a lot of overlap between the plot in this manga and Samurai 8. 

David  43:55  
That is true. 

Jordan  43:56  
Especially the way that Samurai 8 also fucks up, by ending when it just devolves into it's own, um, lore-dumping. And this series has the same thing, and then it also ends in the exact same way. Both series have great art. Samurai 8's writing is significantly better-

David  44:13  
Yeah. 

Jordan  44:13  
Than Last Saiyuki though. Well exce- Like, Samurai 8 is still a better series, but like it's interesting all the overlap. 

David  44:18  
Its kinda crazy that series dealt with gender dysphoria. 

Jordan  44:21  
Right!? 

David  44:22  
Such a strange element of that series.

Jordan  44:24  
It was, like, really, like, amazing for Shonen Jump. It was shocking to see it in Shonen Jump. This series did not deal with that. 

David  44:31  
Nope. It would not have handled it very well.

Jordan  44:33  
It tried handling a different, very, uh, difficult topic, which- Hey! Uh, Samurai 8 also dealt with extreme disability.

David  44:41  
That's true. Okay. 

Jordan  44:42  
Yeah. 

David  44:43  
But, um, do you guys have any other miscellaneous thoughts, or should I read some fun facts from MaxyBee?

Jordan  44:47  
I feel like I've said pretty much everything that I could possibly think of with this series.

David  44:51  
How about you Eric?

Eric  44:52  
Oh, no. You're good.

David  44:53  
Okay. So, before we go into "Final Verdict", I'm just gonna read off some really interesting trivia from MaxyBee. So, fun fact Jordan: The assistant for this series made Bone Collection, so he had a great mentor.

Jordan  45:05  
Ooooooh boy! You know what David? The artist definitely did not make Bone Collection.

David  45:11  
The series that replaced this was Mission Family [Mission: Yozakura Family]. It's the longest running series currently in Shonen Jump that doesn't have an anime.

Jordan  45:16  
Just how much manga running in Shonen Jump right now has the word family in it?

David  45:20  
That's the only one in Shonen Jump. Spy x Family is not in Shonen Jump. 

Jordan  45:23  
What about High School Family? 

David  45:24  
Fuck! I forgot about that. 

Jordan  45:26  
How did you forget about High School Family?!?!

David  45:28  
Cuz it's "The Gomez Show"!

Jordan  45:29  
You're right. You're right. That- That series should be called "The Gomez". It's like how, uh, people just call, uh, the first Indiana Jones "Indiana Jones", even though it's supposed to be "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

David  45:38  
Yes. And then, um, he recommends: If you're curious about the series, read the author notes again, outline of the series development, and character profiles. I wonder if this author will talk about, like, [David mumbles something. Note- No clue what David is saying] like, "Yeah, real fucked up at the start." 

Jordan  45:48  
Mhhm.

David  45:49  
Alright! But, let's get the final verdict. So are you ready? 

Jordan  45:51  
Yeah. 

David  45:52  
So I'm going to start things off with some, um, Six-Word-Summaries. From Tucker, "Shonen Jump flushed away a diamond!". He really loved this series. T. Wolfwood, "Many great interesting ideas, mixed execution" Daniel from "A Smashing Theory", "Wish that timeskip panel happened sooner." Agpuh, "The miracle worker and the bogart". Andy's Islands, "Stick grew long, manga cut short". And I think that's their first submission

Jordan  46:11  
Eyyy! 

David  46:11  
So welcome to the team Andy! 

Jordan  46:13  
Good job Andy! Good first submission.

David  46:15  
And The Laughing Fool, "Journey to the best flop yet".

Jordan  46:19  
Yo, it's a journey to the best! 

David  46:21  
And then how about you Jordan, speaking of the best? 

Jordan  46:23  
"Sometimes Samurai 8 and sometimes B. Ichi" 

David  46:26  
Yep. And I want to say during this call, Rachel tried to video call me so I could see her dog so this is a sacrifice

Jordan  46:31  
Awwww. 

David  46:31  
I make while we record. 

Jordan  46:33  
You- Re- Really care. 

David  46:34  
Yes. I really do. 

Jordan  46:35  
You care in the same way that Ryunosuke cares. 

David  46:37  
Oh shush! 

Jordan  46:38  
You're so sweet. And caring. Anyway, here we go.

David  46:41  
He- How about you Eric? What was your six word summary?

Eric  46:43  
"Don't let others' disabilities stop you"

Jordan  46:46  
Boom! 

David  46:47  
I love it.

Jordan  46:47  
Gottem! Fucking destroyed! 

David  46:49  
And mine- I promise I wrote this before the fans but mine was "Meanders it's 'Journey to the West'." I thought that was a pretty good one.

Jordan  46:56  
It's very true. It's accurate. 

David  46:58  
Alright. But let's go and talk about "Flop or Not". This one actually I think might be a little harder, or not. So, Eric will you lead us off? Is this a "Flop" or not?

Eric  47:02  
Oh God! This really is right on the middle of it, you know?

David  47:10  
Right? 

Eric  47:10  
Cuz like-

Jordan  47:10  
Yeah... 

Eric  47:11  
If I could just separate the art, but I can't. 

David  47:15  
You cannot. 

Eric  47:16  
And I think if-

Jordan  47:17  
No. 

Eric  47:17  
It's on the middle, then that means that I have to say it's a "Flop" because it doesn't manage-

Jordan  47:23  
Yes. 

Eric  47:23  
To overcome the problems holding it back. But it's- There are much worse flops.

David  47:29  
I am 100% with you. I think this is a "Flop". It is definitely not a "Certified Flop", like I was thinking, based on the first chapter. Yeah, I think there were moments where the series actually wasn't a "Flop". There was a good period, much like Level E, but ultimately, then the series kind of got back into bad habits when it needed to wrap itself up.

Jordan  47:44  
Here's the thing about not being a flop: It isn't enough to just be "not bad". You also have to be good. And the thing about this series is there are moments- This guy has the- Absolutely has the potential to be good. But unfortunately, if your art is great, but your writing is terrible, well your art is informed by your writing. If you can't write that interesting things are happening, then you're not going to draw interesting things happening. Like this was the issue with School Judgment. Obata is clearly an extremely talented artist, but he is not being given anything interesting to draw. So as a result, the art does nothing for me. Last Saiyuki: The things are much more interesting than School Judgment, because its fucking School Judgment! But it's still not there. And so it is a "Flop".

David  48:27  
So Eric, what should someone check out instead of reading The Last Saiyuki?

Eric  48:31  
When I was trying to think of things to recommend, my first thought was, "What if you want to read a comic with a disabled character who is a character and not a fucking object?" So my recommendation would be to read the series "S.W.O.R.D." from the X-Men line at Marvel that just wrapped up-

Jordan  48:51  
Woah, okay! 

Eric  48:51  
Relatively recently. That has a disabled character named Wiz-Kid, who is-

David  48:55  
Mhhm. 

Eric  48:55  
One of the best disabled characters I've ever seen in a comic. By which I mean, one of the only ones that is allowed to be an actual character of interiority and motivations.

Jordan  49:05  
That is a very low bar, but it- It is important to be clear. 

Eric  49:09  
Yeah.

Jordan  49:09  
You know? I was just thinking: You know something? If you really want to read a series about a guy who has to take care of his little sister, who's very, uh- Who's secretly, like, a monster and he has to, like, carry around on his back. Maybe there is, like, a popular manga with that exact same premise, perhaps called Demon Slayer?

David  49:27  
Yeah! 

Eric  49:28  
I cannot believe I did not think of that connection. Oh my God! 

Jordan  49:32  
Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. My recommendation is fucking Demon Slayer.

David  49:36  
You've recommended Demon Slayer like twice in three episodes.

Jordan  49:39  
I mean, look: It is literally one of, if not the current, most popular anime in the entire world. 

David  49:45  
Yeah! So you don't need to recommend it. 

Jordan  49:46  
But my point, is as a result, I'm pretty sure it's been very influential recently. 

David  49:51  
[Sigh] Fine. 

Jordan  49:52  
I recommended it as a joke! That- Not really though, because Demon Slayer is better than this actually. Whatever. 

David  49:58  
Alright. But my recommendation is another Shonen Jump manga Magu-chan [God of Destruction]. If you want to see characters in wholesome settings, children interacting with monsters- So essentially, as he said, "What if this series didn't take itself seriously?", I think Magu-chan would be pretty close. And OzyRat says, "Read, um, 'Journey to the West'" which is fair.

Jordan  50:14  
I do not have the attention span to read it, but I wish I did. 

David  50:17  
Okay. Alright, alright, alright. So, y'all ready to go to "Shout-outs"?. 

Eric  50:20  
Yeah.

Jordan  50:21  
Yes. 

David  50:21  
So, as our time is wrapping up: Eric, I want to say thank you so much for joining us. This was a ton of fun talking to you about The Last Saiyuki with you. Where can people find all of the awesome things that you are doing in the world?

Eric  50:31  
Thank you again for having me. It was fun. I am on Twitter @ZorakRichardson. That is Zorak as in, "Space Ghost mantis enemy". And then Richardson.

Jordan  50:43  
Yeaaah! 

Eric  50:43  
I co-host the podcast "Chris and Eric's Longbox Adventure", which is-

David  50:48  
Mhhm. 

Eric  50:49  
A comic book appreciation podcast where most of the things we discuss are actually good. So it's not torture reading, which is fun. I also co-hosted "Queering the Guillotine" which is just- Pop-culture podcast, from two gay people calling Naruto a bunch of words that straight people are not allowed to say. And yeah. Just have done a lot of comic yalk on those. And am also on Twitter, mostly just retweeting Digimon fan art.

Jordan  51:18  
Oh, hell yeah!

David  51:19  
Digimon Tamers for life! 

Eric  51:21  
Yes. 

David  51:21  
Actually, Digimon Tamers is a good rec, that's if you want to see children dealing-

Jordan  51:24  
Yeah! 

David  51:24  
With parent abuse.

Eric  51:25  
That is actually the best recommendation.

Jordan  51:28  
If you want to watch Evangelion for children, you should check out, uh, Digimon Tamers. 

David  51:34  
Yes. No cap! 

Jordan  51:35  
It's better than you think it is actually.

David  51:37  
Anyway, speaking of things are great: I want to give props to Jordan for making the opening/ending theme, being a great co-host, and helping with the editing. 

Jordan  51:43  
Awwwh, thanks! 

David  51:44  
I want to give props to Merliel for the awesome cover art. You can find her online @liel_mer, and Nigel for being our generous art benefactor. I, Jordan, am actually going to go hiking with Nigel next week so it'll be good to see him in person.

Jordan  51:53  
Whoa! Awesome. Tell him I said, "Hi!" 

David  51:56  
I will. I also want to give thanks to Dylan for assistance with editing. You can find his podcasts "Anime Out of Context" at animeoutofcontext.com. Thanks to Tucker and MaxyBee for assistance with pronunciation, translation, and other miscellaneous research. Thanks to T-Root, OzyRat, and T. Wolfwood for being our awesome transcription volunteers. You can find them on our site as they become available. Jordan, anything you want to add? 

Jordan  52:14  
I would like to say thank you, David. Thank you for everything you do. Thank you for editing. 

David  52:18  
Awwwwh.

Jordan  52:18  
I've made this joke before, but thank you for being a friend. 

David  52:21  
Awww.. You can find us on Twitter @shonenflopcast and our website shonenflop.com. We're also on Spotify, iTunes, YouTube, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And come join the Shonen Flop Discord! it's open to everyone, patron or not. Come hang out with us and talk about anime, games, or whatever else is on your mind. We also have a monthly movie night. We just watched "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure." 

Jordan  52:39  
Yes! We did. It was most excellent! 

David  52:41  
It was most excellent! Tune in. Our next one is going to be: Are we watching "Deadpool" or "The Incredibles"? So I want to give a shout-out to OzyRat for running that. You can find a link to the Discord on our site or in the show notes for this very episode. And though- Speaking of Patreon: If you've been enjoying the podcast and want to help us keep going, consider subscribing to our Patreon. We have a ton of awesome perks like bonus episodes on Magu-chan, Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer, and PPPPPP. You can even be talking to us in the show warm-ups and helping us decide what to cover next. Eric is a super awesome patron, so thank you again for not only being on the show, but helping us keep the show running. I really, really appreciate it. 

Eric  53:14  
Thank you.

Jordan  53:15  
Yes, thank you so much, Eric.

David  53:16  
And on that note let's read off some of our wonderful patrons: So first of all, we have: Choke me da- Harder Daddies #SausageFest2022 and Pterodactyl Ghost as our "Chainsaw Man" patrons. Moving down to the "Dolphin Dad" we have: Tracking roving animals for all loving girls and racoons Wolfwood. Then on the "King of the Forest" we have: Albie, Cram, Gabe Landau, Jacob Andrew Galloway, Josh Robinson, Marty, Rachel- My lovely girlfriend. I hope you're having lots of fun in Florida. ScarletMyrmidon, T, The Real Jory, and TheBbKingBbThe. 

Jordan  53:17  
Hey! I love all of you.

David  53:19  
I love you all.

You're all so meaningful to me. So beautiful. All of you. Yes.

And then, also, thank you again, though, Eric, for filling out that form. If you're listening and you want to be a guest, you can find it on our website or in the show notes. We are always looking for guests, and it's always a ton of fun recording with different people. We have a long list of people that are asking, so we ask you to be patient. We will try to get to people as we can. And as our show grows, we'll hopefully be able to also have guests on our Patreon content. Thank you so much for joining us. Tune in next Monday as we give our first thoughts on a very, special series from a author that might be immortal. 

Jordan  54:18  
Oh! Keanu Reeves?

David  54:20  
Yes! This has been David. 

Jordan  54:22  
This has been Jordan. 

Eric  54:23  
This has been Eric. 

David  54:24  
And you've been listening to Shonen Flop!

Jordan  54:25  
Keep on floppin' floppers! And Happy Father's Day.

David  54:28  
Aww. 

Jordan  54:29  
Keep on floppin' fathers! 

David  54:30  
Yeah! Bye!! 

Jordan  54:32  
Bye!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai